NGC grading

[lightjaw]

Afternoon all, I was wondering if someone could answer a few questions about NGC coin grading. I have been looking at the website, but it doesn't seem to clear to me, so i wondered if anyone could answer these questions

 

1) Do you have to be an NGC member to get the coins graded?

 

2) Where do you send them to?

 

3) How do you pay?

 

4) Do you need to give them to an NGC approved shop first and they send them off for you?

 

5) What kind of costs are involved?

 

Thanks all for your help.

[lightjaw]

Oh, and also

 

6) are certain types of coins likely to not be graded? Are there some ones i shouldnt send?

[motorbikez]

Don't send any lunar S1 proofs of any size you'll devalue them not add value, same story with 2oz Kookaburra proofs.

[Kman]

 

^ vid may help

[lightjaw]

video doesnt seem to work, will have a check on youtube anyway, cheers

[Kman]

video doesnt seem to work, will have a check on youtube anyway, cheers

  

woops was missing an o 

 

[sovereignsteve]

Afternoon all, I was wondering if someone could answer a few questions about NGC coin grading. I have been looking at the website, but it doesn't seem to clear to me, so i wondered if anyone could answer these questions

 

1) Do you have to be an NGC member to get the coins graded?

 

2) Where do you send them to?

 

3) How do you pay?

 

4) Do you need to give them to an NGC approved shop first and they send them off for you?

 

5) What kind of costs are involved?

 

Thanks all for your help.

Numistacker needs to answer this but as AFAIA;

 

1. Yes or use an accredited dealer. Last time I looked they had a special offer on for the membership with 6 free gradings which worked out quite reasonable for your 1st 6 coins.

2. America is best. There are a couple of European centres but they don't grade, just send them to the US. I think they have "grading weeks" where you can drop them off in Paris and pick them up within the week. Ok if you're on holiday. business etc. Bit more expensive but get away with shipping.

3. No idea

4. If you like.

5. Check out the website and see if that offer is still on. No idea how much via a dealer. The problem for us is the shipping costs. If you're sending coins worth potentially thousands of pounds to the US, shipping with insurance is astronomical, both ways! Therefore best if you're going in person for some other reason.

 

On second thoughts, some of this might just apply to PCGS, I could be getting confused. Most people think they are the best anyway. Easy to check; the firm with the offices in Paris and Munich do the grading weeks.

[Guest]

Numistacker needs to answer this but as AFAIA;

1. Yes or use an accredited dealer. Last time I looked they had a special offer on for the membership with 6 free gradings which worked out quite reasonable for your 1st 6 coins.

2. America is best. There are a couple of European centres but they don't grade, just send them to the US. I think they have "grading weeks" where you can drop them off in Paris and pick them up within the week. Ok if you're on holiday. business etc. Bit more expensive but get away with shipping.

3. No idea

4. If you like.

5. Check out the website and see if that offer is still on. No idea how much via a dealer. The problem for us is the shipping costs. If you're sending coins worth potentially thousands of pounds to the US, shipping with insurance is astronomical, both ways! Therefore best if you're going in person for some other reason.

On second thoughts, some of this might just apply to PCGS, I could be getting confused. Most people think they are the best anyway. Easy to check; the firm with the offices in Paris and Munich do the grading weeks.

I only know NGC

Need to be a member of ANA or NGC but look at small print as more expensive memberships may not be advantageous.

Insurance is tough and NGC do not insure return packs to UK when sent by usps.

Gold is $35 silver is $17 (min 5 coins ) plus $8 per type of coin plus 25 to 40 return postage

[ChrisSilver]

I presume you would also get charged importation VAT on any silver that you send to be graded on its return to the UK. I guess its probable to claim this back somehow if you have proof that VAT had already been paid on it, might need some sort of documents when you send it as well. But I also assume this would be a complete headache and a lot of work.

[Guest]

I presume you would also get charged importation VAT on any silver that you send to be graded on its return to the UK. I guess its probable to claim this back somehow if you have proof that VAT had already been paid on it, might need some sort of documents when you send it as well. But I also assume this would be a complete headache and a lot of work.

No charges when the coins come back. They are declared as "returned". No charge for Vat or anything else

[ChrisSilver]

No charges when the coins come back. They are declared as "returned". No charge for Vat or anything else

 

Is this your experience with silver? Or you have only sent gold?

[Agpanda]

It´s the same for silver.

I have 5 coins going to NGC atm.

17$ pcs + postage is what i pay.

We are 3 people that have sent together, as i am not a paying member at NGC

[Guest]

Is this your experience with silver? Or you have only sent gold?

Sent silver and gold and never had a problem with silver. Interestingly platinum grades same price as silver!

[Guest]

It´s the same for silver.

I have 5 coins going to NGC atm.

17$ pcs + postage is what i pay.

We are 3 people that have sent together, as i am not a paying member at NGC

Plus 8 for an invoice )) good to tag with others

[Paul]

my two local coin shops in town - will only pay you same as normal bullion even if it slabbed.  picked an ms70 eagle for £2 extra to the eagles they had, their words 

 

"because its in a slab that one is couple of quid more, customers round here dont want to pay any extra for fancy slabs".  

 

All these extra costs are horrendous for your stack average, add vat, add slab fees, add postage, add return postage.  

They are perfect for American market where most are impressed by something as little as a balloon on a stick

 

Remember it is still only a lone oz of silver inside this fancy plastic wrapping.

 

OK pay for slabbing for majorly rare and super rare coins.  But not generic 100,000+ mintage silver bullion is just stupid

 

Pattern Crown, 1910, by A.G. Wyon, in gold, type II, bare head left, rev. St George on horseback left, spearing dragon, date below, edge plain, 55.83g/12h (L & S 9; ESC 388).

 

 

The slabbing costs for this are more so to verify its contents and authenticity 

 

Anyone care to guess the value of the coin above sold in February 2015?

 

I'll give you 120,000 guess's

[ChrisSilver]

@Paul 400-500k ?

[Paul]

http://www.coinweek.com/education/coin-grading/ngc/dix-noonan-webb-coin-auction-tops-635000-rare-1910-george-v-pattern-crown-tops-highlights/

 

£120,000 hammer price (£144,000 with buyers premium included)

[lightjaw]

Thanks for the replies all.

 

I do have to disagree a little with you Paul about slabbing. While i would say that for a lot of things it isnt needed, as you say, there will still always be people who want a "perfect example of something.

 

An example of this is a coin i bought slabbed last year http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2014-Mexico-1-oz-Silver-Libertad-1-Onza-Proof-NGC-PF70-UC-ER-EARLY-RELEASE-/400811415762?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d5238d8d2

 

I bought this for around £60

 

A buy it now one unslabbed one is going for much less http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2014-MEXICO-LIBERTAD-1-Troy-Oz-999-SILVER-PROOF-BULLION-COIN-/111591176100?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item19fb5a37a4

 

Just my personal opinion however.

[Paul]

Thanks for the replies all.

 

I do have to disagree a little with you Paul about slabbing. While i would say that for a lot of things it isnt needed, as you say, there will still always be people who want a "perfect example of something.

 

An example of this is a coin i bought slabbed last year http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2014-Mexico-1-oz-Silver-Libertad-1-Onza-Proof-NGC-PF70-UC-ER-EARLY-RELEASE-/400811415762?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d5238d8d2

 

I bought this for around £60

 

A buy it now one unslabbed one is going for much less http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2014-MEXICO-LIBERTAD-1-Troy-Oz-999-SILVER-PROOF-BULLION-COIN-/111591176100?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item19fb5a37a4

 

Just my personal opinion however.

 

@lightjaw  its your cash mate - spend it how you want.  Plenty of spivs and snake oil saleman out there in our grand cosmos to liberate of your fiat debt paper vouchers.

 

Remember there are two side to each sale. You have to sell at some stage.  Everyone can buy but when you come to liquidate your stack, will the buyers/dealers be full of such eagerness to pay a premium you did for those MS70 super shiny nuggets of silver lovelieness.  It certainly wont be PaulyPops thats for sure.

[Guest]

It is generally not worth stabbing bullion versions of common coins as far as I can see. But stabbing opens coins to the American market where there are 2m collectors.

I buy more common coins ready graded and slabbed as the dealers pay much less than I do for the service and it removes risk.

However where the mintage is less than 1000 and slab populations are small stabbing allows me to keep the coin in peak condition and sell at best price anywhere. It also allows me to offer a differentiated product.

[Guest]

@lightjaw its your cash mate - spend it how you want. Plenty .... will the buyers/dealers be full of such eagerness to pay a premium you did for those MS70 super shiny nuggets of silver lovelieness. It certainly wont be PaulyPops thats for sure.

The answer judging from eBay sales realized between raw and ms70 or pf70 has to be yes.

Thousands of sales realised at premium prices - but for 1oz plain bullion silver apart from Pandas may or may not be worth it.

[Paul]

@lightjaw  I think if we knew what coins you were intend to sending for slabbing you would get clearer and more accurate responses.

@Numistacker - YES, you are very right.  The 'right' coin slabbed is well worth paying the money for where genuine rarity trumps its intrinsic gold/silver content

 

(from coinweek)

A quarter century after the establishment of the first professional coin grading companies, many coin collectors remain skeptical of the benefits of third party grading. For many of them buying raw, ungraded coins is a kind of badge of honor that shows they have not succumbed to the mania for plastic holders. They rely on their own ability to grade coins and believe third party grading is a waste of money.

 

There is no question that the grading companies are not perfect. Sometimes they make mistakes, giving a grade that is clearly too high or too low for a coin. But overall, they perform useful functions by authenticating coins, protecting consumers from subjectively graded coins, adding market value in many cases, and generally facilitating the buying and selling of coins.

 

The grading of modern U.S. Mint coins has become a huge cottage industry for the grading companies and a major source of revenue for them, especially with all the large bulk orders they receive from dealers. But the grading of these coins continues to be especially controversial for a number of reasons. Some collectors feel slabbing reduces the value of coins, no matter what grade they receive. They think slabs are like caskets and prefer to be able to view the coin more closely. Others are convinced their coins are mishandled during the grading process, or that Mint capsules offer better protection than slabs. I am doubtful of both propositions.

In addition, the labeling of coins delivered to third party grading companies within 30 days of their release as “first strikes” or “early releases” remains controversial. There is no way to prove those coins were actually struck first. But some coins were hard to obtain within 30 days of their release because of delays in processing Mint orders, such as the 2009 Ultra High Relief double eagle, and UHR’s with the first strike or early release labels do bring higher premiums than coins without the label.

 

Perhaps most importantly, there is a growing preference among collectors and dealers for modern coins in their original government packaging (OGP) over the same coin in a slab of any grade or grading service. Some people view modern coins which are graded MS69 or below as “damaged goods.”

Modern coins which receive the top grade of MS70 are viewed with skepticism by some collectors and dealers. That is because the Mint tends to produce collector coins to very high standards, for the most part, and virtually any coin submitted for grading will receive either MS or PF69 or 70, although once in a while one gets a coin back with a 68 grade or lower.

 

There are some exceptions to this general rule. The bullion versions of the five ounce America the Beautiful coins, for example, have not received grades higher than MS69 from PCGS and NGC, but the collector versions have produced plenty of MS70 coins.

 

The main problem with modern MS70 coins is that their market value is largely a function of the population numbers for the coin in question in the top grade, and those numbers change all the time as more coins are submitted and come back as 70’s. A lot of collectors of modern U.S. coins make the mistake of paying a high premium for a 70-graded coin when it is relatively new to the marketplace, and over time the value of their coin declines substantially as the population numbers in that grade continue to increase because more people submit their coins.

 

So the first recommendation I would make is if you are not submitting coins yourself which come back as 70’s, and you are buying previously-graded coins which received the top grade, wait until the coin is no longer new to the market. Track how the premium for that coin in 70 evolves over time before purchasing one. There is no set amount of time, and clearly one can wait too long, but it is a good rule of thumb with modern coins not to get too caught up in the hype that tends to surround recent releases.

In addition, shop around. There are times when one can purchase 70’s for a very small premium over raw coins. For example, last year I was able to purchase a 70 of a certain precious metal coin for virtually the same price the Mint charged for a raw coin. In this case, I acted sooner rather than later because I knew the coin was a great deal. Today it carries a nice premium.

 

Third, if you collect top-graded modern coins, I would suggest avoiding those from companies other than NGC and PCGS. There are certainly other grading companies which are reputable such as ANACS and ICG, but they tend to use different standards when assigning grades to modern coins than do the two top companies.

 

Fourth, even experienced collectors and dealers have difficulty telling the difference between a 69 and a 70. Examine your coin from the Mint for possible flaws, and if possible obtain the opinion of a local dealer who has more than likely seen a lot more coins than you have. Grading fees, especially at NGC and PCGS, are costly, especially if you add fees for first strike coins, and in most cases, if you do not receive a 70, you will have overpaid. Dealers send in lots of coins at once and can be assured of getting some 70’s that will recoup a lot of their grading fees, but most collectors are not submitting large numbers of coins at once, so it is a gamble. In addition, the competition for registry sets sometimes drives the prices of very common coins in perfect grades to levels that do not make any sense such as MS70 Lincoln pennies that have sold for more than $10,000.

[Guest]

Thanks @Paul tons of great advice emerging in this thread.

Lots of people in this forum are happy with dogs at spot + lowest possible premium ... I understand this but normally I'm not one of them. So beautiful coins and raw coins are not for all but wisely purchased and assuming bullion does not go to the stars requiring me to pay for my loaf of bread in proof Sovs I should be ok.

I want things that are as rare as I can afford and things I love to look at.

[Paul]

(from coinweek by John Maben - MCM Modern Coin Mart Florida)

 

The “to grade or not to grade” debate of whether or not to use certification companies is all but over. Time has concluded that it is simple personal choice, and anyone that suggests the likes of NGC and PCGS could do more harm than good, is simply uninformed.

 

It is true that First Strikes and Early Releases remains controversial, and my guess is this will not change.

 

However, when you get right down to it, the buyer has a choice and if he or she does not like the concept no one is forcing them to embrace it.

 

I will agree that most retail buyers and dealers would prefer a “fresh” (an industry term used to describe never sent in for grading or picked over) coin in OGP over the same coin graded 69.

 

Why wouldn’t they? With the fresh OGP coin, there is always the possibility that it could be a 70.

 

I am sure some do view a 69 as “damaged goods” as you stated, however they are biased and/or uninformed. Graded 69’s are pristine examples that for very minor reasons did not achieve the ultimate grade.

 

Now, while on the subject of “the ultimate grade” you will see me use this term over “the PERFECT coin”, and for good reason. My professional opinion is that PERFECT coins DO NOT EXIST. Many decades ago a small group of numismatists decided to incorporate the term PERFECT into ANA grading standards to describe a 70. It seemed sensible and logical at the time. Today, it is well know among professional graders that if you use enough magnification (and sometimes LESS than the 5X standard you will often hear about) a trained eye will find very minor flaws, most mint made but sometimes flaws that occur after striking, on virtually every coin if not every coin ever made.

 

For this reason, I am STRONGLY opposed to use of the word PERFECT and you will never see my company use it to describe any coin. I also do not like it because it is over-used and again at least in my opinion, misleading.

It is true that many if not most of the coins (except those intended for general circulation) produced in the past decade or so will seldom grade LESS than 69. While this could be a surprise to a Newbie, I think that the vast majority of repeat retail buyers and virtually all dealers already know this.

 

Populations most definitely do influence values on 70 coins, but even MORE important is good old fashioned DEMAND. A pop one coin means nothing if no one wants it, likewise I could name many modern coins with pops that are considered high for a modern, that have appreciated considerably in value from their issue price and are in high current demand. If you are ONLY buying modern coins based on the pop figures I would suggest that is a losing strategy.

Above and beyond all else,

 

I suggest buying coins you like, and not as an “investment” but because you enjoy them. If possible, stick with coins that are popular and enjoy high demand. If they appreciate down the road it’s a win-win, if they don’t you still had fun along the way. If you are new to collecting I’d steer clear of any individual or company that gets carried away with silly dramatic hype, especially if it is not factual, and of those that use high pressure sales tactics of any kind whatsoever.

 

When buying certified modern coins, it usually pays off to be patient. If a new issue is red hot most of the time that means WAIT TO BUY. The risk of waiting is the chance that they could get tougher to find or increase in value, but more times than not they come down in price as the frenzy subsides. Shop around as Mr Golino suggested and make certain you are comparing apples to apples. Some sellers will deliberately make their product a bit confusing in hopes it will be interpreted as something else of greater value.

 

I am also in complete agreement with Mr Golino about sticking with NGC or PCGS when buying graded modern coins.

The other services just simply are not even playing in the same league. Choose your dealer carefully. At first glance many may look reputable and trustworthy, but this is usually because of numerous affiliations that are mostly meaningless or can be bought. PNG is the most meaningful organization for a professional dealer to be associated with. Again, my opinion, but an opinion shared by many.

 

I would also  like to address the views of John Robinson. It is true that many dealers especially shop owners, have this view of certified 69’s and even 70’s being worth less than OGP, and it is convenient for buying purposes but completely wrong to apply it across the board.

 

For some, and I am not pointing to Mr Robinson or suggesting he would do this, (I believe he is very reputable) it’s easier to label it all “bullion” or “generic” or “common crap” or whatever when buying in part because it isn’t always easy to determine the value quickly and in part to buy it cheaper at base values. Like anything else one should sell specialty items (yes, certified modern coins are a specialty item) to dealers who specialize in them or to other collectors who understand and know their value if they wish to get the best price.

 

The last point I would like to make is that collecting OGP modern coins is easy. When possible buy them from the source, otherwise shop around. Modern certified coins is a highly specialized field and even large dealers like myself don’t deal in every item. For example, I have no clue what a Proof 70 Ike dollar would be worth nor would I be interested in buying one for inventory.

 

That isn’t my customer base, it’s somebody else’s. I mostly steer clear of the “esoteric” low pop moderns because I personally have trouble with the lack of pricing information surrounding them, perhaps in the same way the shop owner is uncomfortable buying commonly traded 70’s at 70 prices. The difference is unless I am forced to make an offer by the customer in order to get other material I actually want, I typically just pass rather than make a low offer.

[lightjaw]

Thankyou for all the replies. I think its important that although i used an example of coins selling for higher premiums after slabbing, that isnt really the reason why i personally want to get NGC graded coins.

 

As time has gone on, i find myself being more of a collector than a pure stacker. I do stack, but if i am truly honest, i collect just for the joy of collecting, and having something that if i ever find myself in true, huge financial trouble i can sell.

 

Honestly though, the more time goes on, the more likely it is that i will never sell my stack, and just get enjoyment from having a certain coin in my collection. Its like pokemon, gotta catch em all! (though i never will).

 

So, for me i like having things that are "perfect" or rare. MS70 and PF70 therefore appeal to me (aswell as making other people envious of my perfect coins!).

 

I dont really want coins for their resale value, i want them for their perfection and their rarity, at a price that i can afford. I will never own a perfect diamond, a perfect car, a perfect anything, apart from maybe....a perfect coin. And that appeals.