Labour government - Potential rise in VAT

[dicker]

Following on from other threads about the impact of a new government in the UK, I see some stories coming out around potential rises in VAT.

Silver already is subject to VAT as we all very well know.

I could quite see a Labour government removing CGT free status on gold coins and at the same time adding VAT on gold sales.  

I would be interested in opinions on what might happen to the real world price of gold (when bought peer to peer) in the U.K. if 20% VAT slapped on sales.

Thoughts?

Best

Dicker

[Roy]

Surely, to be competitive, the P2P transaction would be in line with the new dealer price?

i.e. a 20% increase, selling for less would be foolish.

[dicker]

@Roy I would think so.  Peer to peer may become significantly more popular if people were willing to say sell at 10 or 15 pct over spot.

I suspect smuggling might become a problem for the government but I am not sure that this will be thought about in any detail.

[Bratnia]

And the global metal exchange hub of London, would move into Europe, and pretty much !*@k up the UK, and potentially even cause a global financial crisis as 5000 tonnes of gold was demanded to be moved out of the UK into Europe at a time when there is 124 times more paper gold than physical gold.

[Petra]

🤔🤔well… the latest headlines are saying that all three major parties are saying that VAT will not be raised after the election 🤔

sure this is only one of rather a lot of things being rumoured about before the election day🤔

[flyingveepixie]

As long as I can remember it has been Labour policy to tax and spend, buggering up the economy every time they get into power ever since the 1970s. (Yes I know the tories have royally buggered it up too). It wouldn't surprise me if VAT was added to gold sales, and CGT status for legal tender was removed altogether. There is little doubt that the leadership batten will be passed to Labour this GE, and it is clear to me at least that their tenure will cause more chaos this time around than ever before, whether through stupidity or by design, and I imagine the result of such a policy as VAT on gold and removal of CGT on both gold and silver would be chaotic in the early stages if a notice period was given and panic driven FOMO kicks in, but would maybe settle down as time goes by in the same fashion as it always does when big rises in spot stabilise and become the new normal.

Who knows what they'll do or what sinister or stupid ideas they will implement into law.  Expect the worst.

[Bratnia]

VAT was dropped from gold in order to level the playing field across Europe/EU as otherwise those that taxed gold were at a disadvantage. The US is moving towards removing capital gains tax on bullion, as fundamentally its money, legal tender = settle Court debt 'currency' and applying tax to that is recognised as being simply 'wrong'. Some states are even introducing gold backed currencies. Adding VAT to gold, or removing CGT exemptions on gold in the UK would overall cost more than it would gain and as such is unlikely to occur.

Fundamentally we're more closer to the end of Covid/Ukraine costs, the UK is being predicted to likely outgrow other major economies, whilst the Treasury is empty the upside is that good growth (and hence rising tax revenues) is the more expected/likely next Parliament situation. So much so that both parties are pretty well saying that they have no intention to increases taxes, increased tax revenues via growth alone is expected to cover additional spending needs, more so when allowances aren't being uplifted with inflation which in itself is a increased cost (tax). Taxes are already at their highest since the end of WW2 years.

That is if SKS is elected as PM and can keep control. If instead Labour split similar to how the Tories did then potentially we could end up with a musical chairs that had SKS ousted, Corbyn back in the Labour party and being voted in as its leader (PM). Not that different to how BJ being elected transitioned first to LT and then to Sunak. In which case only then might some wild/stupid extremes be imposed and the UK would be totally stuffed. Corbyn and Abbott have every intent to drive that direction and frankly SKS seems too much of a puppet to counter that drive.

"Wont increase taxes" pledges ignores removal of allowances, and rather than on gold I'd suspect a possibility of ending the likes of ISA allowances and/or CGT exemption on the sale of your primary home. Tax levels remain the same, just more things being taxed. Also there's the print/spend option, where every additional Pound printed/spent devalues all other notes in circulation by a very small amount, but when pushed to macro scales provides large amounts of potential state spending and a actual overall significant 'tax'. With many Labour councils I also see a likely large increase in Council tax rates, as might water bills rise a lot. As ever with Labour its more a case of your wealth is the states wealth combined with a play on words such that election promises turn out to be distinctly different to realities. A vote for Labour is also a vote for a acceleration towards Islamic dominance/preferences, more extremes. The Tories under Sunak is more like a vote for a less extreme form of Labour/socialism. Central conservatism is pretty much out of the running altogether (a vote for Reform is as good as a wasted vote, or even a vote for Labour).

Gold wise and the best choice is physical in-hand gold as that has the greatest level of optionality - such as being more difficult for a state that considers it to be theirs to actually get their hands on when they don't know where and how much.

[flyingveepixie]

2 hours ago, Bratnia said:

Corbyn and Abbott have every intent to drive that direction and frankly SKS seems too much of a puppet to counter that drive.

"Wont increase taxes" pledges ignores removal of allowances, and rather than on gold I'd suspect a possibility of ending the likes of ISA allowances and/or CGT exemption on the sale of your primary home. Tax levels remain the same, just more things being taxed. Also there's the print/spend option, where every additional Pound printed/spent devalues all other notes in circulation by a very small amount, but when pushed to macro scales provides large amounts of potential state spending and a actual overall significant 'tax'. With many Labour councils I also see a likely large increase in Council tax rates, as might water bills rise a lot. As ever with Labour its more a case of your wealth is the states wealth combined with a play on words such that election promises turn out to be distinctly different to realities. A vote for Labour is also a vote for a acceleration towards Islamic dominance/preferences, more extremes. The Tories under Sunak is more like a vote for a less extreme form of Labour/socialism. Central conservatism is pretty much out of the running altogether (a vote for Reform is as good as a wasted vote, or even a vote for Labour).

Agreed pretty much on all points.  SKS is an idiot and a weakling.  

Pledges for this that and the next thing : seems I've heard it all before and they always do the opposite. 

Print/spend : We're already mired in that particular mess - easy for them to keep it going and it's a good stealth tax.

"A vote for Labour is also a vote for a acceleration towards Islamic dominance/preferences, more extremes".   It seems clear to me that they fully intend to cause as much chaos as they possibly can with this. Although for the life of me I can't understand why.

Reform : just a joke. Mainstream wannabes offering a straw for the desperate to clutch, Tory-lite, more of the same, call them what you will. I'll be surprised if they gain a single seat, and if they did I've got a Tom Kitten 50p in my pocket which says they will turn out to be just as corrupt as the rest of them.

I do still think they are stupid enough (and grasping enough) to do away with legal tender CGT status and introduce VAT to gold sales however. Imagine any one of Rayner, Lammy, Abbott, or that idiot Thornberry as chancellor, the possibilities become endless...

 

Edited May 30 by flyingveepixie

[HonestMoneyGoldSilver]

I would say they can't be that stupid but then I remember I've seen these people speak on TV

Raising VAT would be insane. We know that raising taxes does NOT produce greater returns for the Treasury, it actually reduces their revenues.

We should reduce VAT back to 15 or 17.5%. Our great advantage being freed of the EU is being able to set our own fiscal and monetary policies. What do you think would happen to European enterprises if the UK decided to reduce corporation tax to 10%, reduced income taxes, made DEI and ESG obsolete, reduced VAT and made silver and other goods VAT-exempt? It would send the ***** right up the EU. That is what the EU was worried about when the UK left. The EU assumed in order to make up the revenue shortfalls from leaving the EU that the UK would effectively become a tax haven on the shores of Europe

Does being a tax haven work? I don't know, ask Ireland, Singapore, Hong Kong, oh, would you look at that, everywhere taxes are low, business is booming. Strange coincidence

As for legal tender and CGT-exemption for gold, well, legal tender is granted by Royal Proclamation. It's easy to forget that satanist p****, sorry, KCIII, does still technically hold an absurd amount of power. The legal tender bit would require Royal Assent to remove, although this "assent" is a rubber stamp in our constitutional monarchy

To remove CGT-exemption it's possible they might try and remove legal tender status too as one is closely linked to the other. Regardless the CGT aspect is technically controlled by Parliament/HMRC (legal tender controlled by KCIII), and they would require an Act to remove the CGT-exemption from legal tender. This Act would then need to gain Royal Assent. It's not guaranteed that KCIII or whatever monarch would rubber stamp it but it is very likely

Edited May 30 by HonestMoneyGoldSilver

[Bratnia]

1 hour ago, HonestMoneyGoldSilver said:

Royal Proclamation

Like the Royal Mail - where tampering/theft etc. once were serious crimes against the crown, harshly punished, now sold (maybe) to a Czech, the once Royal respect has significantly faded.

The government are supposed to be Parliaments executive, drive the application of its will/laws, in this election case Sunak went to the King to call a election without even consulting his own cabinet. Whatever next

Edited May 30 by Bratnia

[MancunianStacker]

The Elites use gold to their advantage I don’t think they’d touch it. Even a Labour Government. It’s the easiest way to pass wealth to your next generation or get it out of your estate etc.

The elected puppets know their masters won’t be happy if they did so.

[Bratnia]

Not a fan of royalty, however if the King did declare a emergency such as the UK being invaded and no action being taken by Parliament to repel that invasion, and exercised his 'emergency' prerogative to disband the grossly incompetent and expensive parliament, instating martial law around Westminster to enforce that, I'd actually give that my support rather than supporting the continuation of the democratic pretense autocracy that we're currently tied into.

Instruct the navy to sail the channel and any invaders repelled (or destroyed) by military force. International law binds us to accept asylum claims however anyone arriving from a safe country should not be considered as being at greater harm than that of running into a military force with repel or kill orders for defending the UK's borders. The only time that might (should be) permitted is if France were to be declared a unsafe country and a flow of refugees permitted.

[HonestMoneyGoldSilver]

1 minute ago, Bratnia said:

Not a fan of royalty, however if the King did declare a emergency such as the UK being invaded and no action being taken by Parliament to repel that invasion, and exercised his 'emergency' prerogative to disband the grossly incompetent and expensive parliament, instating martial law around Westminster to enforce that, I'd actually give that my support rather than supporting the continuation of the democratic pretense autocracy that we're currently tied into.

Instruct the navy to sail the channel and any invaders repelled (or destroyed) by military force. International law binds us to accept asylum claims however anyone arriving from a safe country should not be considered as being at greater harm than that of running into a military force with repel or kill orders for defending the UK's borders. The only time that might (should be) permitted is if France were to be declared a unsafe country and a flow of refugees permitted.

KCIII is the biggest globalist of them all. He supports open borders. He went on TV to publicly gift London, "to the world", and in his first Christmas speech he mentioned, "All faiths and those with none", which is a direct violation of his sacred duty as, "Defender of THE faith", not defender of ALL faiths. KCIII is a traitor to the British people. He wants net zero, 15-minute cities, loves mass migration and Ursula von der Leyen, he wants the UK to be part of the socialist globalist framework of the EU

We have no hope of a Royal intervention because:

1) KCIII supports WEFminster and is an affirmed neo-Marxist globalist

2) QEII knew it and so does KCIII - the first time the British monarch flexes their muscles and overrules Parliament or takes back control of the country, will be the last time the monarch ever does that. There's one bullet left in the chamber after which the monarchy will end

3) Some people including Tim Cohen since Charles' days as Prince of Wales, believe KCIII is actually the Antichrist ("The Antichrist and a Cup of Tea")

[sixgun]

Here we go - fear porn - Labour will raise VAT - Vote for the Tories - the usual BS.

I do not consent to any of these miserable wretches. 

In any case i buy silver on Kinesis - no VAT or TSF or GS.be - no VAT.

[Esjayc]

I'll caveat my post by saying I've not read / nor am I aware of any particular party's manifesto, nor do I consume media/social media 'news' and opinions, I'm 34 years old, always voted, and my analysis and opinion is conducted from my arm chair during a lunch break(!). Okay folks, here I go...

 

CGT and VAT exemption on gold (from aspects of PM stacking, collecting, and jewellery)-

I believe for the foreseeable future, that CGT and VAT exemption for gold shall continue as we know it, as it's engrained in 'the system'; the wealthy, elites, and 'the old boy's network' have bought into and been part of that system for a very long time - the gov wouldn't want to upset that/them, their donors, their wealthy friends and allies who help them fulfil their policies and agendas. Afterall, that seems to be 'politics' from what I've seen.

On the other hand, reducing or eliminating VAT on silver (not necessarily by the next government but generally at a point in the future), I think, is more likely than the removal of CGT and/or VAT exemption on gold, and may have benefits for the UK economy domestically and internationally. Of course, just my opinion. 

Overall, I think the status-quo as we know it at present, shall continue.

 

VAT generally -

I don't imagine VAT will go up (headlines state declaration that none of the three major parties will increase it). I'll also be surprised if VAT goes down. We shall see. If so, it'll be on or two points - I don't think we'd see going back to 15% or even 17.5% 'just like that'.

VAT going up (I doubt it), would likely lead to a major impact overall on the UK economy. People are squeezed enough already, and further price rises will not benefit the average person. The average person, who may not be familiar with the tax system's ins and outs, does know what VAT is, and parties are unlikely to mess around with this for fear of alienating their potential voter base.

Anyway, for me, a headline saying 'Labour, Tories, Lib Dems pledge not to raise VAT' is as good as not publishing the story or the headline at all - to me, I feel it doesn't really offer useful knowledge to us as voters. Indeed, a unanimous position on something which is not changing, is not really of interest - a unanimous or differing stance by parties on something, however, is.

 

General election and overall how it impacts us as PM stackers / collectors, and life generally - 

Yes we could go on forever about this. But some of my main thoughts...

I stack mostly CGT-exempt (mostly sovs, half sovs, some fractional brits at the right prices), for their CGT exemption. My plan is long-term, and use it as a store of wealth, potential deposit on second property, pension top up, etc. We've got different reasons why we stack or collect. With seeing the CGT threshold decrease, it seems folks in the PM community are more conscious of 'CGT' now. Will the threshold stay low, or be abolished(?) - we don't know. I like other 'world' coins, and I'll pick them up as a collector. But CGT-exempt is where my stacking is at. Of course, the threshold could rise again. We just don't know.

Of course, we each have out own thoughts and opinions; in my 34 years on the planet, I've learnt that in terms of elections, government, policies and pledges, that the only influence I have is to mark my 'X' on a piece of paper, with who I feel will do the best for me, my family, my friends, and overall the country, and hope for the best. Essentially, power is out of my hands, and I can only be as proactive as I can for change, via what the system allows me (pretty much my vote). And to that end, I don't consume media, or tv, nor the likes of facebook. There's a lot of disinformation and sensationalism, headline grabbing, click-bait etc. I find it frustrating and distracting from what's important to me in my life.

My Granddad has good philosophy, and here are some of those things he's passed on to me: "believe it when you see it and experience it"; "look out for yourself and create your own safety net".

In terms of the unknown, I'll leave you with a phrase I use, and I'll do so in context of a little (and true) story.... I've used this with a daft manager I once had, who set me a task to complete while I was on leave (he agreed my leave), and then on my first day back, he asked me why I hadn't completed the task... "Sorry Adam, I didn't bring my crystal ball to work today" 😜.

Let's see what tangibly happens, in terms of the policies and stances positioned by the parties. I certainly am not worried about the VAT headline, nor VAT / CGT 'what if' scenarios until we definitively know.

[SidS]

23 hours ago, Bratnia said:

And the global metal exchange hub of London, would move into Europe, and pretty much !*@k up the UK, and potentially even cause a global financial crisis as 5000 tonnes of gold was demanded to be moved out of the UK into Europe at a time when there is 124 times more paper gold than physical gold.

This is the same party that had Gordon Brown as Chancellor of the Exchequer though.

[flyingveepixie]

Bottom line here and the main point being that they're all as thick as mince, and that makes them unpredictable, so anything could happen. As @SidS points out above, remember Brown as chancellor.

[Esjayc]

Just to add from my last post in here - yes, they're all in it for themselves (regardless of party); it's just trying to work out which ones are slightly in it for the interests of us minions too 😜

[bluffer]

10 hours ago, flyingveepixie said:

Bottom line here and the main point being that they're all as thick as mince, and that makes them unpredictable, so anything could happen. As @SidS points out above, remember Brown as chancellor.

never underestimate the stupidity of politicians.  or greed or self interest or......................

 

a lot of things annoy me about politics but thought for today is - unless you have had an actual job, you should never be allowed to become an mp.  so special assistants, policy advisors to mps etc, think tanks, charities, union reps etc. **** off, get a real job then come back once you have experienced the actual world - especially if its out your bbc / left / progressive / priviledged / so called right wing bubble.  

 

once i rule the world with my fellow lizard people, this shall take effect immediately. 🤫

[Esjayc]

8 minutes ago, bluffer said:

unless you have had an actual job, you should never be allowed to become an mp.  so special assistants, policy advisors to mps etc, think tanks, charities, union reps etc. **** off, get a real job then come back once you have experienced the actual world

Couldn't have put it better myself 💯

[KleinerVogel]

Adding VAT to gold? If they did that gold would be out of reach for me. Hope that never happens!

[Bratnia]

On 31/05/2024 at 07:25, flyingveepixie said:

Bottom line here and the main point being that they're all as thick as mince, and that makes them unpredictable, so anything could happen. As @SidS points out above, remember Brown as chancellor.

Brown had to find money from somewhere to help prop up/start the Euro. Where else if not from gold, that up to then had been a relatively poor asset/holding. Easier with hindsight, many were suggesting that gold was a relic of the past.

VAT and/or CGT would simply be a statement of "don't buy/trade/hold gold in the UK", and that market would flight elsewhere, be a net negative overall outcome. But when Labour have £40Bn already of unfunded spending to cover at least conceptually anything might be proposed as the funding for that. Seems like another major hit against pension funds is their present pointer for that, a easy target/sell - as the present day young more often don't ever see themselves becoming pensioners and disregard that in many cases that is also a cost they will be covering.

[Thelonerangershorse]

On 30/05/2024 at 06:52, Roy said:

Surely, to be competitive, the P2P transaction would be in line with the new dealer price?

i.e. a 20% increase, selling for less would be foolish.

And yet prices for silver on the forum are well below spot +20%,

Try listing a kilo for £900 and see how well that sells.

[MonkeysUncle]

My considered opinion is that when Keith Lemon comes to power precious metal will be so far down the list of things to mess with that they'll not even get to thinking about it.

I already have a wager on the second term being a thing; Starmers leadership skills and keeping his numpties in order will be his downfall I believe. 

I'm currently in possession of a property I no longer require (death in the family) and am contemplating a sale with proceeds into cash/ gilts/ gold. My crystal ball is not clear on the property market; I never seem to read it well.

[Thelonerangershorse]

4 minutes ago, MonkeysUncle said:

I'm currently in possession of a property I no longer require (death in the family) and am contemplating a sale with proceeds into cash

And all that lovley CGT straight into Starmers pocket...😦