NGC Quality Issues (we think).

[Aran]

Here’s one that didn’t sell yesterday in the St. James’s Auction

[GoldenGriffin]

1 hour ago, Aran said:

Here’s one that didn’t sell yesterday in the St. James’s Auction

Right, so a burn mark on a first releases 3 graces coin.

Suggests that it was happening way back then! 😲

[James32]

Just now, GoldenGriffin said:

Right, so a burn mark on a first releases 3 graces coin.

Suggests that it was happening way back then! 😲

Or its only been graded recently?

[Aran]

2 minutes ago, James32 said:

Or its only been graded recently?

It’s a First Release so presumably it was submitted within a month of the release to get the FR designation. Also I checked the NGC submission number of my own coin which is also FR and it starts with a 60, so I think around Jan 21 would have been when it was submitted. 
What we don’t know is whether the apparent burn mark appeared then or at sometime since it was in the holder…

[James32]

2 minutes ago, Aran said:

It’s a First Release so presumably it was submitted within a month of the release to get the FR designation. Also I checked the NGC submission number of my own coin which is also FR and it starts with a 60, so I think around Jan 21 would have been when it was submitted. 
What we don’t know is whether the apparent burn mark appeared then or at sometime since it was in the holder…

Well spotted, missed that vital information 🙈

10 minutes ago, James32 said:

Or its only been graded recently?

Read the small print james

[Darr3nG]

2 hours ago, Aran said:

Here’s one that didn’t sell yesterday in the St. James’s Auction

It does show that people are buying the coin, not the grade

[dikefalos]

18 hours ago, GoldenGriffin said:

Are the coins sent directly to NGC without burn marks or is a 3rd party involved somewhere in the process?

It's said, that due the pandemic NGC has send to graders homes. If so, not sure  how much care every grader could, and want, to give at home for the coins.

 

18 hours ago, FlorinCollector said:

Both direct and 3rd party have had the issue mate and also PCGS and NGC slabs have shown these burn marks. 

My coin was also not conserved 

Never saw a PCGS coin coming back with marks like that. I thought, it's an NGC phenomenon.

[FlorinCollector]

1 minute ago, dikefalos said:

It's said, that due the pandemic NGC has send to graders homes. If so, not sure  how much care every grader could, and want, to give at home for the coins.

 

Never saw a PCGS coin coming back with marks like that. I thought, it's an NGC phenomenon.

I have seen none of the gothics with PCGS but the problem started with the Three Graces which I seen on both PCGS and NGC unfortunately. 

[GoldenGriffin]

2 minutes ago, FlorinCollector said:

I have seen none of the gothics with PCGS but the problem started with the Three Graces which I seen on both PCGS and NGC unfortunately. 

I graded my 3 graces with PCGS and was fine when I looked at it a few months ago.

I'll have to have another look when all 4 of us meet again.

Wouldn't expect any burn markings.

[FlorinCollector]

Just now, GoldenGriffin said:

I graded my 3 graces with PCGS and was fine when I looked at it a few months ago.

I'll have to have another look when all 4 of us meet again.

Wouldn't expect any burn markings.

Yeh if it doesn't come back with it. It should not develop it I have not seen any evidence of this with either. 

[stataman]

Is it possibly a Royal Mint quality control issue? The metal seems to be reacting with something whereas in the past it never did. After all it doesn't seem to be reported to be happening with other silver coins??

Edited April 27, 2022 by stataman

[FlorinCollector]

2 minutes ago, stataman said:

Is it possibly a Royal Mint quality control issue? The metal seems to be reacting with something whereas in the past it never did. After all it doesn't seem to be reported to be happening with other silver coins??

This is the answer I think is most believable. Happened now with 2oz three graces, 5oz gothic quartered and the jubilee coin not sure what size it was. 

[GoldenGriffin]

6 minutes ago, stataman said:

Is it possibly a Royal Mint quality control issue? The metal seems to be reacting with something whereas in the past it never did.

No, I doubt it.

Only reacting in one place on the edge of the coin, plus there has been instances of hair cuttings of some nature and remnants of an egg sandwich apparently.

Royal Mint or NGC / PCGS would definitely not let that happen - way too much risk to their reputation.

Must be someone (3rd party) who likes egg sandwiches 🤷

Edited April 27, 2022 by GoldenGriffin

[CollectForFun]

49 minutes ago, Aran said:

What we don’t know is whether the apparent burn mark appeared then or at sometime since it was in the holder…

That burn mark is already visible in the NGC photo so definitely did not appear just sometime afterwards...

[MancunianStacker]

I’m now thinking, damn better get all my graded silver out of storage and check them all just in case mine are “slow developers” 😬 

[Paul]

29 minutes ago, MancunianStacker said:

I’m now thinking, damn better get all my graded silver out of storage and check them all just in case mine are “slow developers” 😬 

One of the big pros of holding gold. It would be hard to sleep if you had one of the 2kg pf70 super silver mega price coins,that could/may/more than likely change with time. At least you know there's not that worry with gold

[MancunianStacker]

24 minutes ago, Paul said:

One of the big pros of holding gold. It would be hard to sleep if you had one of the 2kg pf70 super silver mega price coins,that could/may/more than likely change with time. At least you know there's not that worry with gold

I did cancel a very big silver too!

They can’t find pacakaging for the coins they have minted and the ones they have got packaging for they haven’t got the blanks to mint and fill the boxes. 🤦‍♂️ 

“The original maker”, what a joke! 

[LawrenceChard]

On 26/04/2022 at 15:11, MancunianStacker said:

Just look at these photos.

“Burn marks” are appearing after NGC grading. Fine coins until they were sent away!

Any examples you would like to share? The below photos were from a Facebook group, not my coins.

I’m just raising this issue for other potential graders to be aware. NGC and/or Royal Mint are not taking responsibility for this!! Yet!

Who would buy a PF70 with this mark on it???

 

What next? - Charred Coins?

😎

[Stacktastic]

3 hours ago, Paul said:

At least you know there's not that worry with gold

I was considering grading a very nice gold Peru coin I have but maybe not now!! 

With regards to silver I have a subscription for the Tudor beasts, but I am quickly seeing silver coins as a bit of a liability now. 
I am going to start buying larger bars instead - my 20oz Scottsdale is looking nice as the lettering is slighting bronzing now adits only in a jiffy bag. 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Stacktastic

[JJH]

So the chemical reaction of the rubber band when it touches it will be so like a burn? And in fact, the whole process takes less than two months. If plastics have this effect, isn't the white lining of ngc also very dangerous? It should also be plastics, what I really want to know is that the 22ct gold coins in the same period will also have this effect. situation?

[MancunianStacker]

A few more examples 😬 

Dont grade any silver with NGC for now 

[Wampum]

The main worry for me would be that the artificial toning agent that caused this, is now sonically sealed within the capsule.

I can see these marks spreading across the coin like some dread inducing Silver toning  eclipse.

Years ago I can remember a collector who would buy part sets to make a whole set,

like the 1887 Proofs then wrap lengths of thick flesh coloured rubber bands which where about 1cm in 

diameter round the circumference, after a while they looked like they all had been in the same Proof box from the start.

If the Sulphur from the rubber is still on them, and was not rinsed off then the reaction will still evolve albeit at a slower pace.    

      

  

Edited May 5, 2022 by Wampum

[Wampum]

On 28/04/2022 at 08:41, JJH said:

So the chemical reaction of the rubber band when it touches it will be so like a burn? And in fact, the whole process takes less than two months. If plastics have this effect, isn't the white lining of ngc also very dangerous? It should also be plastics, what I really want to know is that the 22ct gold coins in the same period will also have this effect. situation?

Gold is classed as Chemically inert which means that this won't happen to the gold, however sovereign's for example are 22/24 parts gold ,so the other 2/24 parts can react,

which is why you sometimes see small red patches on gold coins, which is a reaction with these 2 parts per 24.Redness is more than likely Copper.

The Silver reacts more readily when in contact with other elements, so the reaction with the Sulphur in the rubber band is more extreme.

 

                   2AG  (Silver) +  S  (Sulphur) = Ag2S 

 

The Ag2s(Silver Sulphide)is black which is more noticeable, however this can be reversed with something that is more hungry for the Sulphur,

which is Aluminium, so to reverse, with foil gives you a reaction,

3 Ag2S  (Silver Sulphide)

+

2 Al  (Aluminium)

=

6 Ag  (Silver)

+

Al2s3  (Aluminium Sulphide)

The bicarb being the catalyst, plus salt and water to create the ion exchange, however if it is not rinsed off properly, can leave a residue that looks like milk spots.

Milk spots are different,(this is what I think happens, mostly likely just a total load of _____)

When blanks, have not been cleaned before minting, the cleanser dries on the surface, and once the coin has been minted, this is then bonded to the first few layers of the

Silver at a Molecular level through pressure and heat,

which means that it has now become part of the surface and the coin itself, so to remove this the only way is to damage these layers of the coin. 

Both these problems could be easily avoided by NGC and the Mints by just taking a little more care when examining/producing coins.        

                          

[stataman]

Really fascinating.

Just out of interest do milk spots bother people when buying bullion silver or slabbed graded silver? Would you not want a PR/PF70 coin if it had a milk spot on it?

[SilverPlatinum]

On 26/04/2022 at 09:11, MancunianStacker said:

Just look at these photos.

“Burn marks” are appearing after NGC grading. Fine coins until they were sent away!

Any examples you would like to share? The below photos were from a Facebook group, not my coins.

I’m just raising this issue for other potential graders to be aware. NGC and/or Royal Mint are not taking responsibility for this!! Yet!

Who would buy a PF70 with this mark on it???

 

Very very sad!!! Did the NGC grader smoke and shave over those coins while farting on their home couch!

They should shave all their heads and send them to jail.