RMS Douro Shipwreck Sovereign

[Serendipity]

Victoria, Sovereign, 1871

DESCRIPTION

Victoria (1837-1901), gold sovereign, 1871, London, Tower Hill Mint, third young filleted head left, W.W. raised on truncation for engraver William Wyon, date below, hint of doubling in legend both sides, Latin legend and toothed border surrounding, VICTORIA DEI GRATIA (“Victoria, by the Grace of God”), rev. struck in reverse alignment, crowned quartered shield of arms, laurel wreath surrounding, die number 14 below, emblems below, Latin legend and toothed border surrounding, BRITANNIARUM REGINA FID:DEF: (“Queen of the Britons, Defender of the Faith”), raised hairline flaw in last A of legend to rim, edge milled, weight 7.97g (Bentley 558; Marsh 55; M.C.E. 531; S.3853B). Tiny obverse rim nick, otherwise pleasing good extremely fine. Ex-Douro Cargo, Spink Auction 118, 20-21 November 1996, lot 1377 (part). Calendar year mintage 8,767,250.

HISTORY

RMS Douro was a slender iron-hulled, screw-driven steamship of 2,824 tons - distinguishable by her graceful clipper bow and two brigantine rigged auxiliary masts - built in 1865 by Caird & Company on the River Clyde at Greenock, Scotland. She measured 326 feet long by 40 feet wide and served from 1865 to 1882 with the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company.

Douro initially served the routes between the United Kingdom and the West Indies. Early in her career, she was running mates with RMS Rhone until Rhone was sank in 1867 by a hurricane in the West Indies. In 1869, Douro switched to South American service on the Southampton, England-Buenos Aires, Argentina, route. As a Royal Mail Ship, she carried mail and newspapers under contract. She also often carried precious cargo, including gold and diamonds.

Douro sank in the early morning hours of April 2, 1882, off Cape Finisterre following a collision with the Spanish steamer Yrurac Bat when en route to Southampton from Buenos Aires. Her captain, Ebenezer C. Kemp, along with five other officers went down with the ship, but all 144 other crew and passengers were saved. 

The wreck was eventually salvaged in 1995 By Sverker Hallstrom and Nigel Pickford using a remote-operated vehicle (ROV) at a depth of 1,500 feet. The cargo of gold coins, mostly British sovereigns dating from the reign of Queen Victoria, was sold at auction by Spink, London, in 1996.

https://gmic.co.uk/topic/418-the-true-story-of-the-rms-douro/

This photo shows Douro, sister of RMS Rhone, at Charlotte Amalie Harbour, Saint Thomas, just before the 1867 hurricane; she did survive that force!

TO THE MEMORY OF CAPTAIN E. C. KEMP, THE OFFICERS, ENGINEERS & CREW OF THE ROYAL MAIL STEAM PACKET COMPANY’S SHIP “DOURO” WHO PERISHED AT SEA ON THE 1ST APRIL 1882 NOBLY SACRIFICING THEIR OWN LIVES THAT OTHERS MIGHT BE SAVED.

Route of the RMS Douro.

Queen Victoria by Franz Xaver Winterhalter, 1842.

Victoria, Sovereign, 1871.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Serendipity

[CadmiumGreen]

Here is an example of my R.M.S. Douro Gold Sovereign...1854 Gold Sovereign, “W.W.” Incused, graded XF 45 by NGC... 

[jultorsk]

Super nice thread! 👍 Just today was watching as four ungraded ex-Douro Cargo sovs were auctioned off. In order below pics & hammer prices (incl. premium): 1879S £660, 1880S £960, 1881M £720 and 1881M  £750. Would've been a challenge to pick a favourite! 😅

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by jultorsk
pic order

[sovereignsteve]

@CadmiumGreen

only just seen your post. Did you grade the coin yourself? I'm curious what evidence NGC demand for these?

[Bxlsteve]

What makes these sovs different than most other same year sovs? 
 

i must miss something here. 

Edited March 31, 2020 by Bxlsteve

[Zhorro]

5 minutes ago, Bxlsteve said:

What makes these sovs different than most other same year sovs? 
 

i must miss something here. 

They were salvaged from the wreck of the RMS Douro after being on the sea floor for about a 100 years (see the history at the top of the thread).

[Bxlsteve]

6 minutes ago, Zhorro said:

They were salvaged from the wreck of the RMS Douro after being on the sea floor for about a 100 years (see the history at the top of the thread).

Yes, I did pick that up. 😉 

 

i wanted to know what physical change does that bring to those coins? 
 

[Auricsstash]

42 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

@CadmiumGreen

only just seen your post. Did you grade the coin yourself? I'm curious what evidence NGC demand for these?

Yeah I would be interested to know if all you have to do is send the certificate through it seems like a slam dunk to produce as many of these graded as needed..

[Zhorro]

4 minutes ago, Bxlsteve said:

Yes, I did pick that up. 😉 

 

i wanted to know what physical change does that bring to those coins? 
 

It is all to do with provenance.  The salvaged coins were sold at a number of auctions and were certified as such, but they really need photo certificates, otherwise anyone could produce a piece of paper say that the coin had come from the Douro.  The grading agencies do mention the Douro on their slabs but they obviously need to be convinced that the coin has actually come from the wreck.

[shawy2510]

The certificate should have the picture of the coin on which they have to be able to match it with the said coin. If it doesn't match it will not be graded as Duoro Shipwreck coin

[CadmiumGreen]

2 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

@CadmiumGreen

only just seen your post. Did you grade the coin yourself? I'm curious what evidence NGC demand for these?

Steve, It was purchased as is, so obviously limited pedigree other than what is stated as being graded by NGC. It does show up in the NGC Registry with no photo...suspicious? Not sure what dates NGC started taking representative photos of their graded coins for documentation purposes. 

[sovereignsteve]

3 minutes ago, CadmiumGreen said:

Steve, It was purchased as is, so obviously limited pedigree other than what is stated as being graded by NGC. It does show up in the NGC Registry with no photo...suspicious? Not sure what dates NGC started taking representative photos of their graded coins for documentation purposes. 

Thanks. Who issued the coa? they must have collaborated with NGC on these

[shawy2510]

Here is 1 example on Ebay. 

The cerificate would have been sent to NGC to look at for a match on the coin.

[CadmiumGreen]

Just now, sovereignsteve said:

Thanks. Who issued the coa? they must have collaborated with NGC on these

Purchased off an independent seller, so again limited knowledge of the COA pedigree. I have been searching for any indications of the COA based on “AMS, 2011”, Doug Thomas, RMS Douro Gold Hoard, etc... not finding much...I would believe there would have been collaborative provenance for NGC to grade these coins, just not certain of what documentation took place following the findings in 1995. Also, I don’t necessarily think it is a fake, but those possibilities always do exist.

[Seasider]

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/cheffinsfineart/catalogue-id-srche10195/lot-73da0c50-1c87-4acd-8e1b-ab84011859c1

This lot comes with a Certificate of Origin from something called the Gold & Silver Bureau.  Would that be the sort of thing NGC would accept?  It dates to 1997 so after the Spink auction.

[sovereignsteve]

I've had a couple of Douro sovs but decided not to keep them I thought as the provenance would become difficult as time went on. Mine didn't come with a certificate but were bought from the person who purchased them from the Spink auction with a receipt which obviously included the lot number. I was able to check the coins against the auction catalogue but didn't think this was something that could be relied upon long term.

[CadmiumGreen]

Found this article...

https://www.coinworld.com/insights/Understanding-coins-graded-Shipwreck-effect.html
 

And NGC’s Shipwreck Certification Program...

https://www.ngccoin.com/specialty-services/shipwreck-coin-certification/effect-designation.aspx

 

[5huggy]

4 hours ago, CadmiumGreen said:

Found this article...

https://www.coinworld.com/insights/Understanding-coins-graded-Shipwreck-effect.html
 

And NGC’s Shipwreck Certification Program...

https://www.ngccoin.com/specialty-services/shipwreck-coin-certification/effect-designation.aspx

 

@CadmiumGreen - We could ask another respected "sovereign" specialist, member, if he has any other info that may help the "Forum members"! - - @LawrenceChard  ?

[dicker]

I have a couple that have been graded by NGC.  
 

I think I remember reading that there was the initial Spink disposal, and then a secondary disposal from the salvors share of the coins.  
 

When I looked into this before, I remember that lots of the Douro coins slabbed by NGC have very close grading numbers.  

I am not a an expert on serial numbers of slabbed coins but my guess is that NGC may have received a large number to be graded. 
 

Mine are AU58 and MS60 and the serial numbers were not close to lots of those that I have seen go through auction / on sale.  

Anyone know if this might be the case?

Best

Dicker

[LawrenceChard]

17 hours ago, Seasider said:

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/cheffinsfineart/catalogue-id-srche10195/lot-73da0c50-1c87-4acd-8e1b-ab84011859c1

This lot comes with a Certificate of Origin from something called the Gold & Silver Bureau.  Would that be the sort of thing NGC would accept?  It dates to 1997 so after the Spink auction.

The name Gold & Silver Bureau rang a bell, and with a negative connotation. A quick Google search turned up:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/opinion/money-opinion/p-s-investigates/a-right-coinman-533667 from August 2002.

I can remember seeing John Coppin's adverts in Exchange and Mart way back in the 1960s, and at that time assumed he was a straight dealer. It seems that some time later, he got greedy or desperate, possibly both. 

He expanded and set up at least one high profile business, Gold & Silver Bureau being one of them, employing a large staff of telesales people. His businesses failed and defaulted more than once, owing customers large amounts of money. G&SB was based in Ilford, Essex. Coppin lived in Chigwell, Essex.

When he and his companies finally left the scene, a number of his previous employees set up similar but smaller businesses, in and around the Essex area. I seem to remember some of them using prestigious sounding London postal addresses.

Although we have dealt with at least one of these some years ago, none of them appeared to have had much numismatic knowledge or interest, their main skills appeared to be in salemanship. None of them ever impressed me as having great integrity.

I can't give any meaningful opinion on their certificate.

[LawrenceChard]

15 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

I've had a couple of Douro sovs but decided not to keep them I thought as the provenance would become difficult as time went on. Mine didn't come with a certificate but were bought from the person who purchased them from the Spink auction with a receipt which obviously included the lot number. I was able to check the coins against the auction catalogue but didn't think this was something that could be relied upon long term.

Auction lot numbers and receipts have always been good evidence of provenance, particularly if the lot was illustrated. Also helpful if you have a copy of the catalogue. In recent years online auction records and archives have made this easier.

[LawrenceChard]

6 hours ago, 5huggy said:

@CadmiumGreen - We could ask another respected "sovereign" specialist, member, if he has any other info that may help the "Forum members"! - - @LawrenceChard  ?

The Coinworld article is informative, I think I remember reading it before,

The NGC page also makes sense, mainly.

So, shipwreck sovereigns are likely to be unharmed by their immersion in salt water, and most will have remained in the conditon they were when their ship sank.

At the time, we did not participate in any of the Douro auctions, but not for any particular reason, and we were busy in any case.

Whenever there is a big coin hoard, or wreck recovery, there is always plenty of publicity, and a degree of hype. 

There are effects on both supply and demand. Suddenly there is a greater than normal supply on the market, but also greater interest stimulated by the publicity.

The increased supply can depress prices, whereas the increased interest can increase them.

For the collector who is nore interested in acquiring something "new", it might not matter if he pays a premium price. For others, ther might be the opportunity to grab a few bargains.

The "Douro", or other wreck / hoard provenance will usually remain with the coins, which can never be a bad thing.

My view, when wearing my dealer's hat, is to buy and value the coin on its own merits, rather than because it is from a particular source.

When it comes to selling, I might just be tempted to allow the provenance to add some value, though!

[sovereignsteve]

8 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Auction lot numbers and receipts have always been good evidence of provenance, particularly if the lot was illustrated. Also helpful if you have a copy of the catalogue. In recent years online auction records and archives have made this easier.

Yes I would agree. However at the time I wasn't to know whether this audit trail would remain forever or at least until the time I wanted to sell.

I decided that the Douro provenance wasn't important to me so I assessed my holding the coins on their merits alone. I decided to take the Douro link premium and sell while the provenance was still there.

As I didn't pay any Duoro premium when I bought, you could say I took the profit when I could😉

[LawrenceChard]

We have bought in a few Douro sovereigns, including at least one which had been marketed by The Royal Mint.

If this link works, there are some photos of Douro sovereigns, a CD, and a bottle of port:
https://www.flickr.com/search/?user_id=68432253%40N04&sort=date-taken-desc&text=douro&view_all=1

[LawrenceChard]

On 01/04/2020 at 13:15, LawrenceChard said:

The name Gold & Silver Bureau rang a bell, and with a negative connotation. A quick Google search turned up:

 

I just found one of our old (antique!) pages, mentionng GSB:

https://24carat.co.uk/frame.php?url=goldandsilverbureau.html