2020 Una and the Lion

[goldmember44]

As for the silver, there is really a lot of selling activity on Ebay... every day at least one is sold it seems.

[AndrewSL76]

In 1995 the RM produced a special medal to celebrate the bicentenary of the birth of William Wyon. They minted 2,000 sterling silver (.925) Proof coins.

I recently managed to get one as I wanted it to be paired up with my Una. Despite it being 25 years old it is in excellent condition and I’m very pleased with it. Here are some pictures:

[sovereignsteve]

1 hour ago, goldmember44 said:

That's why I take all his cynicism with a huge pinch of salt... he seems to be a bitter bloke.

He does have a lot of issues with the commercial side of this game, true, but he is very knowledgeable about numismatics.

[h103efa]

The silver proof version is available for £299.99 at our favourite spam mail supplier H & B. 

I'm sure in recall reading on here somewhere that they got an allocation of 150 ish? 

[kimchi]

A real shame to suspect shill bidding on this. I'm sure we all expect this happens on ebay and Youtube all the time, sad to say, but it's not like this coin 'needs' it

I was thinking about this the other day and that if I had one I would have it up already for £30k (best offer). But very easy for me to say as I don't, so please don't listen to me and I am certainly not recommending any course of action!

On 11/01/2020 at 13:17, goldmember44 said:

That's why I take all his cynicism with a huge pinch of salt... he seems to be a bitter bloke.

He used to be a member here, he very much knows his onions and certainly doesn't hold back when he has a strong point of view (which is usually!). Better to be a cynic than lose a lot of money in my book. I don't always agree with him, and reasonably often strongly disagree, but I find his opinions very useful in that he challenges my own to the point where I really have to be sure about an expensive coin. It goes without saying, but is worth repeating I think, that it's not monopoly money we are playing with here!

Edited January 13, 2020 by kimchi

[goldmember44]

44 minutes ago, h103efa said:

The silver proof version is available for £299.99 at our favourite spam mail supplier H & B. 

I'm sure in recall reading on here somewhere that they got an allocation of 150 ish? 

Wow, then I'm sure they're going to rake in the profits and probably sell all of that. I might even decide to get another one at that price...

Edited January 11, 2020 by goldmember44

[Melon]

Not so sure about the shill bidding, hard to say. As we all know, when you bid on eBay you can put in your max bid and it automatically bids up to that amount to secure the lead. Is it not possible that the high activity in a short period was simply a consequence of the existing leader having a high max bid set, and then another user placing a similar low bid but with a high maximum? They would automatically jump the price up right? 
 

Zero feedback is always suspicious, but similarly the type of person dropping 20k on this coin may not frequent eBay. 
 

Most suspicious is the same person winning multiple. That seems mega risky. 

[kimchi]

On 11/01/2020 at 17:07, Melon said:

Not so sure about the shill bidding, hard to say. <snip>

It's not hard to say - this looks like shill bidding to me.

The very unwelcome element for me here is that this coin doesn't need it. I don't have one so have absolutely nothing to gain or lose.

<edit> Edited to reflect opinion not fact.

Edited January 13, 2020 by kimchi

[magpie79]

1 hour ago, kimchi said:

He used to be a member here, he very much knows his onions and certainly doesn't hold back when he has a strong point of view (which is usually!). Better to be a cynic than lose a lot of money in my book. I don't always agree with him, and reasonably often strongly disagree, but I find his opinions very useful in that he challenges my own to the point where I really have to be sure about an expensive coin. It goes without saying, but is worth repeating I think, that it's not monopoly money we are playing with here!

totally agree with all the points above , great advice !!!! and yes his videos do show that your should question yourself before purchasing anything. although i must say most of he's opinions do seem to be more of a personal attack and should really be kept to himself !!!!  

this side of pm collecting is clearly being seen by you very shrewd forum members with the recent eBay bidding on the gold una !!!!!

 
 

[Realwealthuprising]

36 minutes ago, kimchi said:

The very unwelcome element for me here is that this coin doesn't need it. I don't have one so have absolutely nothing to gain or lose.

I agree with this, its greed that pushes some owners to do those things and this coin certainly doesn’t need it. The owners have won already and will surely make a profit beyond what they hoped for originally, to try and manipulate it beyond that is not playing by the Queensbury rules 🧐

 

Edited January 11, 2020 by Realwealthuprising

[Melon]

4 hours ago, kimchi said:

It's not hard to say - this is clear shill bidding. We all know how ebay bidding works, we (correction then - most of us) all know how it presents itself.

The very unwelcome element for me here is that this coin doesn't need it. I don't have one so have absolutely nothing to gain or lose.

Unless I’m missing something, this sounds like an opinion 😛

[Paul]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Una-and-the-Lion-2019-UK-2oz-Gold-Proof-Coin-Limited-Edition-225-Very-Rare/303441903449?hash=item46a68bff59:g:1tAAAOSw64ZeGlia

Another new gold Una & Lion has appeared on auction on FleaBay UK 

Start Bid £13,500

Lets hope this is a natural auction with no jiggerypokery going on with this one to meddle with the price 

9 days of analysis, discussions, shouts and rants to follow now, so thatll keep this Una thread alive !   

 

[BrumChris]

4 hours ago, Paul said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Una-and-the-Lion-2019-UK-2oz-Gold-Proof-Coin-Limited-Edition-225-Very-Rare/303441903449?hash=item46a68bff59:g:1tAAAOSw64ZeGlia

Another new gold Una & Lion has appeared on auction on FleaBay UK 

Start Bid £13,500

Lets hope this is a natural auction with no jiggerypokery going on with this one to meddle with the price 

9 days of analysis, discussions, shouts and rants to follow now, so thatll keep this Una thread alive !   

 

Seller says that it's COA 5. Based on that they must have it in hand but are only using stock images... 

All of this looks like an attempt to 'lock in' a high price point before listing an actual coin. 

As far as I'm concerned I'll only accept an open market price when some have been sold at real auctions - Baldwin, Spink etc

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, BrumChris said:

Seller says that it's COA 5. Based on that they must have it in hand but are only using stock images... 

All of this looks like an attempt to 'lock in' a high price point before listing an actual coin. 

As far as I'm concerned I'll only accept an open market price when some have been sold at real auctions - Baldwin, Spink etc

Its probably now in the post to them and not all have yet been posted by RM.  I cant see what is more real about Baldwin or Spink. The have a 20+% BP so the only real thing is at least 20% higher costs to the buyer )))  My guess is that this auction will end at over £20k. This one looks to be a genuine seller who sells coins often on ebay. 

[BrumChris]

10 minutes ago, Numistacker said:

Its probably now in the post to them and not all have yet been posted by RM.  I cant see what is more real about Baldwin or Spink. The have a 20+% BP so the only real thing is at least 20% higher costs to the buyer )))  My guess is that this auction will end at over £20k. This one looks to be a genuine seller who sells coins often on ebay. 

Fair point. Personally I wouldn't buy anything like that ungraded and unseen on ebay but that's just me. 

I'm guessing that a Baldwin/Spink auction is a bit harder to cancel/refund than ebay. 

[Guest]

On 11/01/2020 at 10:01, Realwealthuprising said:

The winning bid on this last one was the same buyer as a previous ebay luna of £20000 which is strange.

It could be one buyer deciding to buy these coins or taking into account the suspicious ebay activity its possible  a few owners have made an agreement to work together to pump the price. 
 

The funny thing is i understand to some extent the comments about shill bidding and I have read the comments and seen the videos put out by the scottsman but having just returned from the FUN show in Florida and talked to a number of dealers and a couple of collectors who have bought in the region of 20k the truth is that there are buyers for this coin at £20k and the price could go higher though my view is that it will settle lower over the next couple of years. I am personally aware of one seller on ebay that has sold to a genuine collector, i am aware of three dealers who would buy every one on the market at the moment at about 15k in order to resell or keep.  I was very lucky to buy one and I wont say what I sold for but I am now able to go shopping in the January coin auctions as a direct result of buying a coin that i was not going to buy then decided to buy then wanted to keep and ultimately I could not refuse to sell.

This is a bit of a wierd situation but it does happen sometimes. The $64 enhanced reverse proof with a 30,000 mintage resold at $6,000 but has now come down a little to what 2k or 3k maybe less. There are lots of people out there with cash and if they want something they can use that cash to persuade sellers to sell as they did with me. We should all remember that lots of modern new releases go down over time so its nice when something happens to prove that there is a GOD! I am eternally grateful but those who are looking for conspiracy theories including my friend on youtube will not find much in my view as fun as it is to search for them.

[goldmember44]

25 minutes ago, Numistacker said:

I am eternally grateful but those who are looking for conspiracy theories including my friend on youtube will not find much in my view as fun as it is to search for them.

Unfortunately there is such a thing as envy, Numi, and some people are very susceptible to it. It's not nice... 

[Realwealthuprising]

People taking an interest in the price of a new coin and recognising a lot of dodgy bidding isn't envy. Some of the people commenting on the fishy goings on actually own the coin so it cant be assumed everyone is envious.

Its also not disbelief it could sell for £20000, not for me anyways. Thats actually why im surprised theres been this kind of thing. I understand why someone who owns the coin might not want any criticism at all of an auction with a high sale price even when it was shill bidded greatly because they worry it might effect their own sale...but its a bit disingenuous to criticise others who mention it. The discussion cannot be only mention good things. If you own the coin there is no reason to be so defensive the coin is clearly going to be a great profit, unless its your auction then why worry that there are people highlighting dodgy bidding on a coin thread about that coin. The discussion turned to looking at the auctions and that was what happened and was why it was discussed.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Realwealthuprising

[magpie79]

You beat me to it @Realwealthuprising And brilliantly put 

i agree no one is denying The cost of the coin , but numbers don’t lie , something isn’t right with the bidding on eBay 

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Realwealthuprising said:

People taking an interest in the price of a new coin and recognising a lot of dodgy bidding isn't envy. Some of the people commenting on the fishy goings on actually own the coin so it cant be assumed everyone is envious.

Its also not disbelief it could sell for £20000, not for me anyways. Thats actually why im surprised theres been this kind of thing. I understand why someone who owns the coin might not want any criticism at all of an auction with a high sale price even when it was shill bidded greatly because they worry it might effect their own sale...but its a bit disingenuous to criticise others who mention it. The discussion cannot be only mention good things. If you own the coin there is no reason to be so defensive the coin is clearly going to be a great profit, unless its your auction then why worry that there are people highlighting dodgy bidding on a coin thread about that coin. The discussion turned to looking at the auctions and that was what happened and was why it was discussed.

When I looked at the first ebay sale I saw a dealer bidding for the coin and he/she didnt win it, the next sale the dealer won the coin in an auction. The sale price of the 2nd was about £3k more and perhaps the dealer bid high becuase he/she had lost the previous auction and really wanted one. I think further up this thread you or someone else said there was a third auction and perhaps ( have not checked) it was the same dealer buying. You said it was suspicious that the bidding went from £6k to £13k or more in a couple of minutes and since the absolute floor price was £13k (based on known sales) i would have thought that a dealer would normally have put the max price as one bid at one time. At least 50% of the time when I sell coins on ebay this is what happens and so naturally other bidders chase up the bidding but the key think with ebay is that the person who WINS actually pays and that it is a genuine sale. Im sure that this does not always happen but it seem to happen most of the time as far as I can see. So knowing what the market price for this coin is - are any sales dummy sales to set a market price or are they real? None of us know for sure but all the ebay sales at the moment are about the same as real world sales I personally know about.

[Kman]

The Dave channel guy certainly thinks @Numistacker has a lot of pull if he can artificially inflate a coins value to £20,000

If this is true Numi I hope your day job is marketing 😛 

[Realwealthuprising]

38 minutes ago, Numistacker said:

You said it was suspicious that the bidding went from £6k to £13k or more in a couple of minutes

I was mentioning that there was a bid of 5k then 6k and then a Zero feedback buyer who took it immediately 19k. It was this that looked suspicious. My comment wasn’t to do with the assumed value of the coin however or the fact someone bidded so much. I think anyone who uses ebay knows it is often a sign of something dodgy for a zero feedback buyer to turn up within hours of a listing and bid something really high, in this case especially weird with it been an obscure coin that people are selling for the first time. A dealer would likely not be a zero feedback customer on ebay.

Thats all people were questioning I dont think anyone besides the guy in the video was talking about the worth of the coin and it wasn’t the focus of the recent comments, it was the above.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Realwealthuprising

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Realwealthuprising said:

I was mentioning that there was a bid of 5k then 6k and then a Zero feedback buyer who took it immediately 19k. It was this that looked suspicious. My comment wasn’t to do with the assumed value of the coin however or the fact someone bidded so much. I think anyone who uses ebay knows it is often a sign of something dodgy for a zero feedback buyer to turn up within hours of a listing and bid something really high, in this case especially weird with it been an obscure coin that people are selling for the first time. A dealer would likely not be a zero feedback customer on ebay.

Thats all people were questioning I dont think anyone besides the guy in the video was talking about the worth of the coin and it wasn’t the focus of the recent comments, it was the above.

Apologies as I did not mean to imply that. I agree with you that a first high bid from no feedback looks dodgy though there are plenty of coin people who could have opened an account just to bid on the coin. 

[Melon]

1 hour ago, Realwealthuprising said:

I was mentioning that there was a bid of 5k then 6k and then a Zero feedback buyer who took it immediately 19k. It was this that looked suspicious. My comment wasn’t to do with the assumed value of the coin however or the fact someone bidded so much. I think anyone who uses ebay knows it is often a sign of something dodgy for a zero feedback buyer to turn up within hours of a listing and bid something really high, in this case especially weird with it been an obscure coin that people are selling for the first time. A dealer would likely not be a zero feedback customer on ebay.

Thats all people were questioning I dont think anyone besides the guy in the video was talking about the worth of the coin and it wasn’t the focus of the recent comments, it was the above.

One bidder can not simply raise the bid to £19k. To do that, another bidder must be bidding up to £18.9k+. This isn't shill bidding, it's just bidding - it's how eBay works - the person that bid the £18k figure would have had that as their max bid, someone else has come along and tried to beat it. It happens frequently (not on £20k coins of course, there aren't many of those!). 

The suspicion on a zero feedback bidder is legit, but not conclusive - everyone starts at zero feedback and as it's been said multiple times, the type of people buying a £20k coin may sign up for an account specifically for that purpose. Or they may well be a fraud, both bidders might be in on it, and actually no coin was sold - possible but we don't know for sure either way. 

What I personally think is wrong is when people assert that it is definitely shill bidding - by all means highlight the suspicion that it could be shill bidding, but let's avoid conclusions without facts. (by the way I'm not saying you did that - but some folk have)

(p.s. No I don't own one, nor will I be buying at £20k! 😂)

Edited January 12, 2020 by Melon

[Guest]

It looks like there were 4 bidders.. a big big dealer bid £5,000 then a new bidder with 0 feedback went into the ring then two others joined both outbidding each other and going for bids near the previous selling prices. One had 72 feedback and one a dealer probably with 4550 feedback.  ebay generated lots of automatic bids as each time 72 feedback bidder bid 

The winners early bid on 6th Jan was eventually eclipsed by bidder with 72 

They both carried on outbidding each other and eventually the dealer made a final bid over and above his previous top bid of presumably a much higher amount to ensure he was not eclipsed at the last. The 0 feedback bidder was only there in the game very early? Does this look like shill bidding? well if it was then the bidder at 72 was the shill and playing a VERY risky game by bidding so high. It looks to me like both parties really wanted to buy this coin.