Fake 1966 sovereign?

[universalcurrency]

I bought this sovereign from a local antique dealer, however I am not 100% that it is genuine.  I checked it for weight with my pocket scales that was ok but my pocket ebay size tester seemed slightly off.

 When I used the pocket size tester it was a tight fit approximately around the diameter of the coin.  I haven't checked with a vernier but will do so when I can borrow one.

I have no reason to suspect that the dealer sold me a dude, and there are plenty of 1966 sovs.

What are your thoughts....

 

[richatthecroft]

Looks ok to me.  Here’s Some to compare it to, including a 1966.

 

 

[KevjustKev]

The rim doesn't look quite right, more off centre than a modern coin should be, plus the reverse seems to have too much relief. 

[Pete]

How accurate are your scales and how precise ?
If weight and diameter are correct then a fake would need to be measurably thicker and definitely wouldn't pass through a tester slot.
Measuring coin thickness accurately is not really possible.
You can get a measurement of sorts but this has to be done at various places including the centre and NEVER the rim.
Many sovereigns were pressed leaving a much higher than normal rim.
Extremely thin protrusions would wear instantly but some are thicker and some coins are slightly off centre with a higher rim in places.
This could account for the tight fit.

[universalcurrency]

5 minutes ago, Pete said:

How accurate are your scales and how precise ?
If weight and diameter are correct then a fake would need to be measurably thicker and definitely wouldn't pass through a tester slot.
Measuring coin thickness accurately is not really possible.
You can get a measurement of sorts but this has to be done at various places including the centre and NEVER the rim.
Many sovereigns were pressed leaving a much higher than normal rim.
Extremely thin protrusions would wear instantly but some are thicker and some coins are slightly off centre with a higher rim in places.
This could account for the tight fit.

My scales are only 1 decimal place, a tanita 1479z .

I havent measured the thickness just the diameter with pictured tool, which could be inaccurate.  As previously discussed its a tight fit in the mdf tool.

As you say Pete measuring thickness would be quite inconclusive due to variation.

Are there any other things to look out for eg possible design inconsistancies between mine and a konwn genuine sov?

[universalcurrency]

18 minutes ago, tallthinkev said:

The rim doesn't look quite right, more off centre than a modern coin should be, plus the reverse seems to have too much relief. 

Just wondering if the relief is due to the light source... Btw I used a halogen light.

[Pete]

If you are going to have restless nights worrying about this coin you could try making a specific gravity test.
There are earlier posts describing the method but some care has to be taken to get meaningful results.
Maybe take it to a local jeweller and pretend to want to sell it and see if they can test but a good fake would most likely slip through.
What did you pay if you are willing to divulge ?

[dicker]

I am only on my iPhone so I cannot see it perfectly but I think it looks ok - same as the one I have.... Happy for wiser members to correct me though. 

[ilovesilverireallydo]

@augur sold one recently I think. He may know this coin better. Initial inspection looks ok

[gazer]

Good information thank you.

[universalcurrency]

14 hours ago, Pete said:

If you are going to have restless nights worrying about this coin you could try making a specific gravity test.
There are earlier posts describing the method but some care has to be taken to get meaningful results.
Maybe take it to a local jeweller and pretend to want to sell it and see if they can test but a good fake would most likely slip through.
What did you pay if you are willing to divulge ?

I paid £260 for it.  Under spot I know however the last time I went in a guy came in looking for a probate evaluation so its highly likely that he buys collections for quite a bit under spot.

Like I said previously I have no reason to suspect foul play, but if he hasn't checked all his sovs then perhaps some good fakes have slipped under the radar.

As you mentioned jewellers, I know of at least one goldsmith in my local area and a couple of pawn shops that would more than likely have an xrf or sigma.  What do these people normally charge for testing, just out of interest?

[universalcurrency]

11 hours ago, Marc said:

I have 100's of sovereigns and this one looks good to me but they (the chinamen)are making good fakes and I recently got sold a fake on ebay that i thought was real from the description (his pictures were bad which is a tell tell sign that something  may not be right). I bought a gold tester just for this purpose, it cost me about 3 sovereigns but is worth its weight in gold. Your sov could possibly be fake but real gold, which is ok if you paid less than £300. Have to be so careful but any good person will 100% take a fake back and refund yuor monye without question and I think that would apply 100% to any SF member. F

About your Sigma, was the price new or 2nd hand, as I have no idea what these tools cost?

Its something I might consider buying when I am a bit more flush, sounds great for peace of mind.  Btw can you specify gold fineness for an unknown coin or is it only know coins?

[silenceissilver]

3 hours ago, universalcurrency said:

About your Sigma, was the price new or 2nd hand, as I have no idea what these tools cost?

Its something I might consider buying when I am a bit more flush, sounds great for peace of mind.  Btw can you specify gold fineness for an unknown coin or is it only know coins?

I have bought my Sigma Pro here,

https://sigmametalytics.com/PMVPro/

from what I remember the shipping to the UK was not much over 100 Dollars and the import fee was £279.80. I have bought two wands for 100 each but that was not really necessary, I have not even used them so far. I have no bigger pieces than one ounce (gold) and 2 ounces (silver) and it works for me but for bigger pieces you will need the external bridge as well. I would not recommend the not pro version as it only measures the surface whereas the pro measures the surface AND through the whole coin...

The upper bar shows the surface, the lower one the whole coin

Before I had it, I had once brought a Half Sovereign that I strongly suspected to be a fake after I had done a specific gravity test on it, to Bairds and Co in London, the X rayed it and it turned out to be 18K gold instead of 22. They even gave me a certificate for the fake that I took to the dealer where I bought the fake from (and got a proper replacement as mentioned in the Crocodile thread). I was buying Sovereigns at Bairds and Co though when I brought them the fake Half Sovereign, I have no clue if they would have done this if I had not but they didn't charge anything for this.

 

[augur]

On 27/07/2019 at 21:43, universalcurrency said:

I bought this sovereign from a local antique dealer, however I am not 100% that it is genuine.

 When I used the pocket size tester it was a tight fit approximately around the diameter of the coin.

I have no reason to suspect that the dealer sold me a dude, and there are plenty of 1966 sovs.

The pictures are a bit hard to judge as not taken in daylight. However there is nothing that would make me suspicious. 

The width of mine is 22.05mm -22.11mm so maybe if you can take accurate measurements with a calliper or try to test the coin at a different position it should pass without friction?

[sovereignsteve]

There's nothing obviously wrong with this coin and I'm not aware of any almost-perfect fakes in this series.

The rim does look a bit strange and the date possibly as well, but both these aspects are commonly inaccurately represented by photography.

[darrol]

On ‎28‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 17:13, silenceissilver said:

I have bought my Sigma Pro here,

https://sigmametalytics.com/PMVPro/

from what I remember the shipping to the UK was not much over 100 Dollars and the import fee was £279.80. I have bought two wands for 100 each but that was not really necessary, I have not even used them so far. I have no bigger pieces than one ounce (gold) and 2 ounces (silver) and it works for me but for bigger pieces you will need the external bridge as well. I would not recommend the not pro version as it only measures the surface whereas the pro measures the surface AND through the whole coin...

The upper bar shows the surface, the lower one the whole coin

Before I had it, I had once brought a Half Sovereign that I strongly suspected to be a fake after I had done a specific gravity test on it, to Bairds and Co in London, the X rayed it and it turned out to be 18K gold instead of 22. They even gave me a certificate for the fake that I took to the dealer where I bought the fake from (and got a proper replacement as mentioned in the Crocodile thread). I was buying Sovereigns at Bairds and Co though when I brought them the fake Half Sovereign, I have no clue if they would have done this if I had not but they didn't charge anything for this.

 

looks a great piece of kit to have  but look at how many bullion coins I could buy for that price . I buy most of my gold from reputable dealers so I hope that I never get any fakes ,  even if I got the odd few fakes I don't think I would get my moneys worth from the sigma at that price . 

[silenceissilver]

2 hours ago, darrol said:

looks a great piece of kit to have  but look at how many bullion coins I could buy for that price . I buy most of my gold from reputable dealers so I hope that I never get any fakes ,  even if I got the odd few fakes I don't think I would get my moneys worth from the sigma at that price . 

Then I would go for specific gravity and magnet tests, together with buying from reasonable dealers that should do the job. But it also depends on your time horizon, for example I don't have a huge stack but plan to buy for a long time to come hence I bought this machine.

[BillyBunter]

Obviously hard to tell from just a photo but the coin looks legit to me.

[universalcurrency]

9 hours ago, augur said:

The pictures are a bit hard to judge as not taken in daylight. However there is nothing that would make me suspicious. 

The width of mine is 22.05mm -22.11mm so maybe if you can take accurate measurements with a calliper or try to test the coin at a different position it should pass without friction?

I measured mine yesterday and I think it was about 22.11mm. I would have to double check.  Personally I hadn't banked on sovereign dimensions being so variable.  Is this due to the softness of the metal, combined with bulk handling? Eg being thrown into a bucket bag etc at the mint or scrooge mcduck gold hoard....😀

[universalcurrency]

Lessons learned from he wise at tsf; 1. cheap coin size testers are not infallible and can provide false negatives (I hope)

                                                                  2. independent testing via xrf or sigma pmv is great for peace of mind

                                                                 3. vintage sovereigns can vary from the specified dimensions

 

Many thanks to all for the helpful advise.

[silenceissilver]

15 minutes ago, universalcurrency said:

I measured mine yesterday and I think it was about 22.11mm. I would have to double check.  Personally I hadn't banked on sovereign dimensions being so variable.  Is this due to the softness of the metal, combined with bulk handling? Eg being thrown into a bucket bag etc at the mint or scrooge mcduck gold hoard....😀

I have also measured the dimensions of Sovereigns, I find it very unhelpful. Specific gravity tests provide much better results.

[sovereignsteve]

I generally don't bother measuring, preferring to use one of the cheap size testers mentioned, I find these more than adequate to pick out any fakes. This coupled with an accurate set of scales, should be just as good as a SG test which I believe can't be carried out accurately enough on a sovereign, at least with the equipment available to the collector. Good fakes are generally pretty close to 22ct anyway.

Anything that doesn't go smoothly through the slots in the tester should be treated with suspicion. Fakes are usually too wide in diameter.

[TheGoldSovereign]

5 hours ago, Marc said:

I have no interest if you buy or not. I just showed it since it helped me detect at least 7 fake coins and someone on the SF asked me about it. I have no affiliation with that maker and i bought for my personal preference. I am happy that you cannot justify buying it since you can save some money and with hope maybe you will never buy any fakes. I would rather use science than hope to make the buying decisions for me. If someone is choking you can pray that they do not die or use a studied technique like the hymen maneuver to assist. Like with coins I prefer to use available technology than just hope. Science over religion. 

@darrol Don't worry, Marc doesn't understand opinions and has a strange way of conveying that he is always right 🤣

As he has told me before it's a language thing, can't quite work it out though 🥰

[silenceissilver]

22 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

This coupled with an accurate set of scales, should be just as good as a SG test which I believe can't be carried out accurately enough on a sovereign, at least with the equipment available to the collector. Good fakes are generally pretty close to 22ct anyway.

Do you remember when we discussed if my first half Sovereign would be fake - I was not sure about the significance of the result as I had no way to compare the results to a real Half Sovereign but in the end it turned out to be a fake indeed, it was 18K instead of 22, so the specific gravity tests work pretty well but obviously you can only do it with bullion coins. If you apply it together with a magnet test, you should find most fakes.

 

The aforementioned thread might also be usesful for those here who don't want to buy a Sigma - which I would really recommend if you plan to buy PMs on an at least halfway regular basis for many more years.

 

[darrol]

19 hours ago, Marc said:

I have no interest if you buy or not. I just showed it since it helped me detect at least 7 fake coins and someone on the SF asked me about it. I have no affiliation with that maker and i bought for my personal preference. I am happy that you cannot justify buying it since you can save some money and with hope maybe you will never buy any fakes. I would rather use science than hope to make the buying decisions for me. If someone is choking you can pray that they do not die or use a studied technique like the hymen maneuver to assist. Like with coins I prefer to use available technology than just hope. Science over religion. 

I was referring more to the  Sigma Pro version,  the first version seems a more realistic price range if someone is dealing in lots of coins ,  I just couldn't understand why the pro version was nearly double in price it just looks basically the same thing .