A little help with my Saudi Gold Guinea

[Xander]

3 minutes ago, ilovesilverireallydo said:

That explains the discrepancy in descriptions

OK, 1 Riyal =40 Riyal. I will get there eventually.😉

[augur]

5 minutes ago, Xander said:

OK, 1 Riyal =40 Riyal. I will get there eventually.😉

Except for that the gold Riyal is otherwise called Gunayh (Guinea) despite representing a Sovereign.

But then the Maria Theresia Thaler was called Alryal Alfransi (French Ryal). 

Still keeping up? 😉 

[ilovesilverireallydo]

https://colnect.com/en/coins/coin/52793-1_Riyal-1953~1964_-_2nd_King_Saud-Saudi_Arabia

So I may have been right about the Philly connection to this version

[BackyardBullion]

Update

Thought I would share a quick update. I had a reply from Atkinsons bullion first thing Monday morning (they actually replied via Instagram messaging over the weekend but could not sort it until the office was open). 

They have offered a full and complete return and refund including return postage. 

Very well handled by them and I am not going to hold a grudge that it happened at all. 

Lots of lessons learned I am sure from both sides of this situation and I want to say a big thanks to everyone here on the forum and on YouTube for helping!

I am still on the lookout for one of these beautiful coins though, but maybe have to wait as gold has gone up quite a bit this week!

[Seasider]

43 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

I am still on the lookout for one of these beautiful coins though,

How about 2 of them?

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/hansons/catalogue-id-hanson10190/lot-0a513d7a-d321-4498-bf01-aa62010faf35

[ilovesilverireallydo]

15 hours ago, Seasider said:

How about 2 of them?

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/hansons/catalogue-id-hanson10190/lot-0a513d7a-d321-4498-bf01-aa62010faf35

SHHHHH AM BIDDING ON THEM 

[Seasider]

5 hours ago, ilovesilverireallydo said:

SHHHHH AM BIDDING ON THEM 

Sorry.  

I am not - otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned them.😀

You may want to get a better photo of the 1950 one.

[ProfessorStacker]

The date ١٣٧٠ is 1370 in Arabic. I believe the current Arabic year is 1440. I can tell you the coin has Quran calligraphy written on it. It looks like a nice coin. Are you sending it to NGC?

[BackyardBullion]

Update on the coin.....

All sorted!

 

[ilovesilverireallydo]

On 07/06/2019 at 23:36, ProfessorStacker said:

The date ١٣٧٠ is 1370 in Arabic. I believe the current Arabic year is 1440. I can tell you the coin has Quran calligraphy written on it. It looks like a nice coin. Are you sending it to NGC?

It’s fake. 

[Murph]

I have seen info stating the 1950 was minted at Lahore mint and then the 57 in Saudi and also other info saying the 57 was minted at Lahore.

With patterns minted by the Royal mint as well.

 

Who knows which are correct.

I saw one of these on atkinsons recently but the picture did have the 22 which stopped me from buying it.

I've had words with Atkinsons a couple of times about them listing single, dated coins and not actually using pictures of the coin you are buying.  I've had a couple of very poor condition coins when the pictures have been of much better coins.  They say they will give you an email picture if you ask but if it is a popular coin it will be gone before they get round to doing this.

 

 

[ilovesilverireallydo]

8 minutes ago, Murph said:

I saw one of these on atkinsons recently but the picture did have the 22 which stopped me from buying it.

That’s the one @BackyardBullion bought and returned 

[Murph]

8 hours ago, ilovesilverireallydo said:

That’s the one @BackyardBullion bought and returned 

When I said recently I didn't mean that recent.  It was a while before this thread.

It may have had 22 in Arabic numerals and mm iirc which made me think it might be a jewelry copy.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Murph

[VegasBob]

Yes, it is legitimate 22K gold, but it is a remake of the original 1950 Saudi Guinea.  In the middle east they sell these as bullion.  They are not "counterfeit", they are just considered to be tributes to the originals.  In other words, in the middle east these are understood to be copies, but just modern bullion rounds.  They contain the exact same .9167 fine gold as the actual 1950 Guinea.   Frustrating to Americans, because we tend to think of things like this as "fakes" or "counterfeit", but that is not how they are intended or perceived in Saudi Arabia.  As long as the "22"(Kt) is on there -- or something else showing that they are an homage / tribute / copy - there is nothing illegal about it, and they are not intended to deceive anyone.  Hey, at least you still have the gold content - almost 1/4 oz-t.

[BackyardBullion]

@augur huge thanks for sending me a genuine Saudi Guinea to feature on YouTube!

I am just sad I cannot keep it 😞

But it is quite stunning and you can clearly see the difference between this and the copy version I got!

Live and learn!

[augur]

2 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

I am just sad I cannot keep it [...] it is quite stunning

This must be the first time I see you wearing gloves 😂 I am equally impressed 

[BackyardBullion]

Just now, augur said:

This must be the first time I see you wearing gloves 😂 I am equally impressed 

Well....it is your coin after all!

[Cornishfarmer]

41 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

@augur huge thanks for sending me a genuine Saudi Guinea to feature on YouTube!

I am just sad I cannot keep it 😞

But it is quite stunning and you can clearly see the difference between this and the copy version I got!

Live and learn!

Is the one on the right genuine??? Those trees don’t look right!!!

[BackyardBullion]

10 minutes ago, Cornishfarmer said:

Is the one on the right genuine??? Those trees don’t look right!!!

I think this is a genuine one - the fuzzy bit of the trees on the right is just being out of focus on the camera. 

[Cornishfarmer]

They just look to have too much detail.  You and @augur will know more than I ever will.  

[augur]

1 hour ago, Cornishfarmer said:

Is the one on the right genuine??? Those trees don’t look right!!!

We can never exclude the possibility of a high quality forged coin. The coin is sharply struck with good detail, the planchet was pickled; what I don't like is the slight lack of detail on the mint master mark (wing right to the 1). However this coin resembles very well the third of the reference images on PCGS

https://www.pcgs.com/valueview/saudi-arabia/ah1370-1950-guinea-km-36/1531?sn=557801&h=pop

and notably the three pictured coins are all slightly different. So if this coin was fake it also would have fooled the PCGS graders. 

[ilovesilverireallydo]

2 hours ago, Cornishfarmer said:

They just look to have too much detail.  You and @augur will know more than I ever will.  

99% certain this is genuine 

[ProfessorStacker]

12 hours ago, augur said:

We can never exclude the possibility of a high quality forged coin. The coin is sharply struck with good detail, the planchet was pickled; what I don't like is the slight lack of detail on the mint master mark (wing right to the 1). However this coin resembles very well the third of the reference images on PCGS

https://www.pcgs.com/valueview/saudi-arabia/ah1370-1950-guinea-km-36/1531?sn=557801&h=pop

and notably the three pictured coins are all slightly different. So if this coin was fake it also would have fooled the PCGS 

Edited July 26, 2019 by ProfessorStacker

[LawrenceChard]

On 31/05/2019 at 20:44, BackyardBullion said:

Howdy all, I did a video today on my Saudi Arabia Gold Guinea bought from Atkinson's Bullion a few weeks ago.

A few people commented that it might be a fake coin as it is quite worn and that it has "22" on it.

Now, I have done a specific gravity test as well as dimensions and weights which are all bang on correct for weight, dimension and 22ct Gold.

So, I am confident that I have real gold, but do I have a real Saudi Gold Guinea or is it a counterfeit coin?

I have not been able to find much info on the "22" part, a few photos from Google image searchs show "MOM 22" but not just "22" on its own.

Any thoughts/comments would be very helpful from anyone that knows more than I do!

 
I have only just seen this.
Someone asked about our 1970/1 Saudi gold pound / guinea coins, and I ended up seeing one of your YouTube videos mentioning it, then viewing the other two.

Without being too harsh, I was surprised that you did not spot this as an obvious fake, with 3 or 4 years experience under your belt.
This issue and design are all dated 1370 A.H., which ran from 13th October 1950 to 2nd October 1951; being my usual pedantic self, it is more accurate to call it a 1951 coin rather than a 1950, although 1950/1 is even better.

The later dated coins 1377 A.H. 1957/8 were a different design, and strangely enough I cannot remember having seen or owned one.

Most of the Krause World Coin catalogues contain pages showing Arabic date symbols, calendar conversions, but nowadays you can find all these online. There are also some good websites which show you where to find the date, mint, and other information on Arabic coins (we should add them to ours).
From your video shots, the coin does not look worn, it looks weak, soft and mushy; all good clues to look more closely. I suspect your was cast, although better quality fakes are die-struck.

As numerous people told you, the "22" is also a big cluem and there are many variations on it 22ct, 22K, Mom 22 (I think mom means weight), sometimes the "22" is in Arabic numerals. My belief is that without these marks, it would be illegal to sell such fakes in Arabia, and under Shariah law, who knows which bits might get cut off?

I should say that I was even more surprised that your supplier sent this out as genuine, and I guess can't, or couldn't, tell the difference. In my opinion, this is almost inexcusable from anyone who calls themselves a coin or bullion dealer. However, I am aware that even some reputable and usually reliable bullion dealers sell fake, damaged, or otherwise substandard bullion coins all too often. None of the people we deal with would quibble about exchanging or replacing fake or suspect coins, so I would have been astounded if you had not received a prompt refund. I think it is revealing that your supplier's website is still showing photos of an obvious fake (not "your" coin), more than a year after your incident.
Not only do we receive "bad" coins directly form other dealers, but because we make frequent buy-ins from  collectors, investors, and the general public, we do see  a lot of fakes, mainly gold sovereigns, but other coins too. I try to impress on our staff to ask where people acquired their coins, partly because it maintains our market intelligence.
I usually sleep well, but one thing which sometimes disturbs my sleep is the nightmare thought that we might accidentally supply a fake coin. If or when it happens, one consolation will be that it is a very rare occurrence, whereas for some of our competitors, it is a regular daily activity. Some don't seem to know or care.

Another slightly surprising thing I have noticed is that our Niton XRD results for these coins usually show slightly low gold content, compared with British gold sovereigns, combined with a slightly higher silver content. Here is one example showing two test results:

 

Yesterday, I tested a few more of our Saudi gold coins, but have not yet published the results, because I am waiting for photos of the coins.
A few other facts:
Although these are almost universally called “guineas”, the Arabic word “Gunayh”  means “Saudi Pound”.
Also, you note that the 1950/1 issue was minted in Lahore, Pakistan, but the wording on the coin translates as “Struck in the Holy City of Mekka”.

I hope this helps, even though it is slightly late!

[LawrenceChard]

On 09/07/2020 at 15:09, LawrenceChard said:

Yesterday, I tested a few more of our Saudi gold coins, but have not yet published the results, because I am waiting for photos of the coins.
A few other facts:
Although these are almost universally called “guineas”, the Arabic word “Gunayh”  means “Saudi Pound”.
Also, you note that the 1950/1 issue was minted in Lahore, Pakistan, but the wording on the coin translates as “Struck in the Holy City of Mekka”.

I hope this helps, even though it is slightly late!

This is an interesting coin, the only one I have yet got the photos for.

Although it is sharply struck, with good details, I pulled it out for special attention.

What I did not like are the dark areas, and the coin looks very slightly grainy. I thought this may just have been me being over-suspicious or over-careful, but our Niton XRF test showed a result which surprised me:

Alloy Analysis

Obverse
Gold 914 (+-3)
Copper 85 (+-1)

Reverse
Gold 914 (+-3)
Copper 86 (+-1)

All shown as parts per thousand. The figures in brackets are tolerances.

Other, good, examples of this coin I have tested contain a noticeable silver content, about 5 p.p.t. or more.
This leads me to conclude that this coin is probably a fake.

More to follow...