Bullion Kangaroos as stack base

[silenceissilver]

I will soon buy what will be my stack base. I tend to go for the Australian Silver Kangaroo 1 oz coins, the one depicted below, not the older series with changing motives. The reasons for this are:

1) I want 999.9 silver

2) I want a pure bullion coin and not the more expensive Koalas or Kookaburras

3) The Maple Leaf milk spots a lot

 

Ad 1) - This is the finess used in industry and silver is thought to run out (in 15 years) thus before I want to sell. Who knows if it really will that soon but in case it does I want to be covered and not need to sell silver that needs to undergoe an expensive procedure to increase it to the required fineness.

Ad 3) The new mint shield technology is too new to know it really works. Also, strickly speaking whatever the milk spots are, it's not silver, if you want 999.9 silver for industrial usage, you need to get rid of it. The same is true for the new mnt shield technology which is a layer of a chemical (so again not silver). You need to get rid of it before you throw them into the melting pot, if you want actual 999.9

I could just buy kilo bars for that but I want one ounce pieces in order to be more flexible. At this point I cannot really know if I will sell for industrial usage in many years to come or not.

I could buy one ounce bars but I want coins or at least rounds. There is not too much logic behind that, it's just because I see silver more as money than as commodity and want to pay tribute to that - I guess. I don't really know for sure why, but it must be coins, not bars.

 

So now, my actual question - what is your experience with these coins in terms of milk spotting, compared to coins like e.g. the American Silver Eagle? (It's a shame they are not 999.9, I like their matt finish)

 

[Bullionbilly]

Good choise. Cheap. Has some fake protection with the the perth mark and mint shield which i didnt know perth used. Fill ur boots !

[Bullionbilly]

Reading that back . Did you mean maple has mintshield

[silenceissilver]

3 minutes ago, Bullionbilly said:

Reading that back . Did you mean maple has mintshield

yes

[sovereignsteve]

6 minutes ago, Bullionbilly said:

Good choise. Cheap. Has some fake protection with the the perth mark and mint shield which i didnt know perth used. Fill ur boots !

Well I'm not so sure this is the right choice. Just going by GS.BE prices:

kangaroo €15.33/oz

What about the 2oz bullion Beast Yale at €32 ie €16/oz

Hardly a difference but you'll always be able to sell the beasts at a higher premium than the roos.

Unless you're going to wait until silver soars and dump your stack to a metal dealer in which case you'll probably get the same price for all the coins.

You say you want flexibility so my point is you could sell a tube of beasts here and there for a nice premium.

Depends on your end game really.

[silenceissilver]

10 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

Well I'm not so sure this is the right choice. Just going by GS.BE prices:

kangaroo €15.33/oz

What about the 2oz bullion Beast Yale at €32 ie €16/oz

Hardly a difference but you'll always be able to sell the beasts at a higher premium than the roos.

Unless you're going to wait until silver soars and dump your stack to a metal dealer in which case you'll probably get the same price for all the coins.

You say you want flexibility so my point is you could sell a tube of beasts here and there for a nice premium.

Depends on your end game really.

It didn't even come to me they are 999.9 silver. Not sure though if I want a part of a series as my base. It could be, "so you have tons of that one and only a handful of the other coins of this series?" At least in my imagination that's a question I would expect from a dealer, in case it doesn't end up at a scrap metal dealer. Price wise, I could buy ca 2 to 3 bullion sovereigns for the difference. I think the Queen's Beast are too numistmatic for my stack base.

[FrozenMojito]

If you are purely buying as a bullion stack then milk spotting is irrelevant. A 1oz coin with a milk spot is still 1oz of silver.

[Bullionbilly]

Just now, FrozenMojito said:

If you are purely buying as a bullion stack then milk spotting is irrelevant. A 1oz coin with a milk spot is still 1oz of silver.

Another good point

[silenceissilver]

Just now, FrozenMojito said:

If you are purely buying as a bullion stack then milk spotting is irrelevant. A 1oz coin with a milk spot is still 1oz of silver.

That's true generally speaking but would it also be true if silver really run out in ca 15 years and I would sell to a scrap dealer who wanted to sell it for industrial usage with a required finess of 4 9s?

[sovereignsteve]

7 minutes ago, silenceissilver said:

It didn't even come to me they are 999.9 silver. Not sure though if I want a part of a series as my base. It could be, "so you have tons of that one and only a handful of the other coins of this series?" At least in my imagination that's a question I would expect from a dealer, in case it doesn't end up at a scrap metal dealer. Price wise, I could buy ca 2 to 3 bullion sovereigns for the difference. I think the Queen's Beast are too numistmatic for my stack base.

I doubt a dealer will be interested in that question, they won't be looking to buy sets. 7 in the series down so another 3 after this. Assuming you will be buying bullion for the next few years, the latest beast will always be the cheapest. So you will have a good stack of 4 in the series. Just a thought, if it doesn't suit then ignore me😁

[kimchi]

Very sorry to say, but Roos are notorious spotters

15 minutes ago, silenceissilver said:

It could be, "so you have tons of that one and only a handful of the other coins of this series?" At least in my imagination that's a question I would expect from a dealer, in case it doesn't end up at a scrap metal dealer. Price wise, I could buy ca 2 to 3 bullion sovereigns for the difference. I think the Queen's Beast are too numistmatic for my stack base.

It's your imagination - dealers aren't interested in piecing sets together, at buy back they would take whatever you have in bulk that they can make a profit on, a single type (issue) of QB already does that (can't promise this will continue!). Roos will always be bullion (or melt if you need to cash out quick).

[silenceissilver]

8 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

I doubt a dealer will be interested in that question, they won't be looking to buy sets. 7 in the series down so another 3 after this. Assuming you will be buying bullion for the next few years, the latest beast will always be the cheapest. So you will have a good stack of 4 in the series. Just a thought, if it doesn't suit then ignore me😁

I will buy bullion the next years but after getting the base I will not focus on anything particular but get loads of different coins and bars. Of course a bit more of some than of others. Certainly an interesting point. I'm still tending towards the Kangaroo but maybe one more argument for the Beasts and I will go for them 😁

[silenceissilver]

2 minutes ago, kimchi said:

Very sorry to say, but Roos are notorious spotters

Really? I have one tube, no spotting yet but I guess I didn't have them for long enough.

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Added 0 minutes later...

3 minutes ago, kimchi said:

It's your imagination - dealers aren't interested in piecing sets together, at buy back they would take whatever you have in bulk that they can make a profit on, a single type (issue) of QB already does that (can't promise this will continue!). Roos will always be bullion (or melt if you need to cash out quick).

Makes sense

[sixgun]

These Kangaroos spot - i don't have many but they are all pretty grubby.

They are one of my least favourite coins. i don't like the design.

It depends where you imagine you are going to sell the coins when the time comes. Personally I would generally try to sell privately. In that case i would try to get a coin that has some collector value, so i agree with sovereignsteve when he says he would go for a Queens Beast 2oz coin. At this stage you are not paying much over the price of Kangaroos.

 

[silenceissilver]

 

28 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

I doubt a dealer will be interested in that question, they won't be looking to buy sets. 7 in the series down so another 3 after this. Assuming you will be buying bullion for the next few years, the latest beast will always be the cheapest. So you will have a good stack of 4 in the series. Just a thought, if it doesn't suit then ignore me😁

The Yale is really a very ugly beast.

Do you think it will be possible to swap two or  three monsters boxes of the Yale against the the same amount of White Lion of Mortimer, the White Horse of Hanover or the White Greyhound of Richmond regardless of what the spot price does (or even swap it for a profit as the older parts of the series increase in value), let's say on this forum?

[silenceissilver]

1 minute ago, sixgun said:

These Kangaroos spot - i don't have many but they are all pretty grubby.

They are one of my least favourite coins. i don't like the design.

It depends where you imagine you are going to sell the coins when the time comes. Personally I would generally try to sell privately. In that case i would try to get a coin that has some collector value, so i agree with sovereignsteve when he says he would go for a Queens Beast 2oz coin. At this stage you are not paying much over the price of Kangaroos.

 

Well, I don't know. When I started stacking last summer I was surprised how small the off line market is, in the UK. Outside of London, the supply of such shops is terrible. Big cities, no decent coin shop! It seems the US and Germany have many more physical shops. Who knows what it will be like when I sell, the only thing I know for sure, unless circumstances force me to sell early, I will not touch my base stack for at least 20 years.

[sixgun]

1 minute ago, silenceissilver said:

 

The Yale is really a very ugly beast.

Do you think it will be possible to swap two or  three monsters boxes of the Yale against the the same amount of White Lion of Mortimer, the White Horse of Hanover or the White Greyhound of Richmond regardless of what the spot price does (or even swap it for a profit as the older parts of the series increase in value), let's say on this forum?

No - no-one is going to do that at this stage with this coin. This is why coins with a collector element are also about time - letting the coin appreciate. Beasts are supposed to be ugly, people are saying it is really ugly which makes it different from the rest.

[silenceissilver]

1 minute ago, sixgun said:

No - no-one is going to do that at this stage with this coin. This is why coins with a collector element are also about time - letting the coin appreciate. Beasts are supposed to be ugly, people are saying it is really ugly which makes it different from the rest.

Of coures, beasts must be ugly. Still, some are ugly in a pretty way, like the unicorn or the lion.

[silenceissilver]

12 minutes ago, sixgun said:

No - no-one is going to do that at this stage with this coin. This is why coins with a collector element are also about time - letting the coin appreciate. Beasts are supposed to be ugly, people are saying it is really ugly which makes it different from the rest.

Also, what about the Beasts and spotting? Where is it on the Philharmonic - Silver Eagle scale ( from what I know they spot very little, mine don't so far but that doesn't mean too much, it's a handful). I have one Beast so far, a Scottish Unicorn and I could see tiny milk spots, only visible under a microscope. (I hope I don't mix it up with another coin. I have looked at some coins through a microsope when I was trying to verify all my Sovereigns are real).

[sixgun]

12 minutes ago, silenceissilver said:

Also, what about the Beasts and spotting? Where is it on the Philharmonic - Silver Eagle scale ( from what I know they spot very little, mine don't so far but that doesn't mean too much, it's a handful). I have one Beast so far, a Scottish Unicorn and I could see tiny milk spots, only visible under a microscope. (I hope I don't mix it up with another coin. I have looked at some coins through a microsope when I was trying to verify all my Sovereigns are real).

Beasts are spotters as well. i would say the absolute worst the Royal Canadian Mint - then it is just luck or bad luck with Brits, Beasts, Phillies, Elephants, ASE's....Really you have to get Perth Mint lunars and the like to be sure. Then you are paying a premium. i have not seen a spotted Lunar I so they seem to stand the test of time. In 20 years a collector coin in good nick is going to repay the premium you paid. i have tended to get bars more recently b/c i don't have to worry about spotting and if they tarnish this adds to the character. i appreciate your point about 1oz coins makes the stack more flexible. Personally i would go for a broad spectrum of silver - that way you spread risks. Buying a couple of monster boxes of Kangaroos and then in a few years finding that most of them are milked up would be a real downer. i had a few tubes of Elephants the other year. Half of them got milk spot after about 18 months - i was gutted - they might all be spotted now.

[silenceissilver]

18 minutes ago, sixgun said:

Beasts are spotters as well. i would say the absolute worst the Royal Canadian Mint - then it is just luck or bad luck with Brits, Beasts, Phillies, Elephants, ASE's....Really you have to get Perth Mint lunars and the like to be sure. Then you are paying a premium. i have not seen a spotted Lunar I so they seem to stand the test of time. In 20 years a collector coin in good nick is going to repay the premium you paid. i have tended to get bars more recently b/c i don't have to worry about spotting and if they tarnish this adds to the character. i appreciate your point about 1oz coins makes the stack more flexible. Personally i would go for a broad spectrum of silver - that way you spread risks. Buying a couple of monster boxes of Kangaroos and then in a few years finding that most of them are milked up would be a real downer. i had a few tubes of Elephants the other year. Half of them got milk spot after about 18 months - i was gutted - they might all be spotted now.

The Unicorn is still available at under 32 Euros per coin at the European Mint, at the current spot price, and I have seen the QBs have 400 oz in a monster box, so getting 3 of them as stack base would be nice but only if they don't spot. It would be a real downer, indeed, even if it was a pure bullion coin like the Kangaroo. So ASEs as well?! I thought matt coins don't spot (or not as much). I think I will just go for the Kangaroo, obviously I can't avoid spotting with Bullion coins.

[sovereignsteve]

33 minutes ago, silenceissilver said:

The Unicorn is still available at under 32 Euros per coin at the European Mint, at the current spot price, and I have seen the QBs have 400 oz in a monster box, so getting 3 of them as stack base would be nice but only if they don't spot. It would be a real downer, indeed, even if it was a pure bullion coin like the Kangaroo. So ASEs as well?! I thought matt coins don't spot (or not as much). I think I will just go for the Kangaroo, obviously I can't avoid spotting with Bullion coins.

They can spot but contrary to what people say about milking being caused by mint blank washing, I think there's an element of coin storage conditions in there too.

I don't think I have ever had a silver coin spot while in my care, and I have lots of elephants and lions, the oldest beast.

[sixgun]

In my collection ASE's have not spotted and i have a reasonable number, having said that i have read in a number of forum entries around the web where people have complained that ASE's spot.

Personally i would get the QB's - i would expect a rising premium on these - some will spot - and some will not - on balance i think i would make more money on QB's that bog standard Kangaroos. Obviously our choice in the end

[AgCoyote]

My falcon of Plantagenets coin started spotting.

 

If spotting is a big deal, you can eliminate them. Simply get a pencil eraser, erase the mark and then put it in hot soapy water. Boom it'll be gone. I did this with 10 2013 Canada Polar Bears, a Brittania, and my Falcon and the spots are all gone.

 

I think the Kangaroo is a logical choice to be the bulk of your stack but I agree with the others that you might as well get something that will be rare in the coming years. The Kangaroos will still be there when you are ready.

[longplay]

Maple Leafs and Kangaroos were at a similar price point when I purchased and I opted for the Kangaroos specifically because of the RCM's reputation on spotting -- although I was buying for bullion so it wasn't a huge worry either way.