Realwealthuprising

With public debt levels were they are and even worse will be come 2021-2022 after the next god knows how many waves of mmt, I think labour or tory, they’ll tax everything they can think of. 
I wouldn’t be surpised if gold was taxed in the future, it would do two favours for government as it would steal money from investors which will be there goal, and it will be a way of coaxing people from divesting from £££’s

Fabulous idea, now your talking!! 😛

I think the ability to move between the UK and Poland is a great failsafe and a farm is my own plan also. I agree with what you said about Polands downsides too, well, my wife tells me some of these things and others I learn from being here (we are here atm). My parents in law have many traits of those who lived through great scarcity/ communism....its similar to how my grandparents who were children in ww2 were only even more pronounced.
My wife has a dual nationality and I am a resident of Poland. For you to have your EU citizenship I think thats a definite safeguard in these worrying decades ahead. Its an option at least and you already have a place to go.
Like you id prefer the wilderness of New Zealand, maybe Finland or Alaska, but alas family is important also. At least an EU passport still gets you access to many countries for safety although the deconstruction of freedom of movement is ahead of us imo, they will want capital controls as this thing unwinds and I think they'll do it the old fashioned way probably under the guise of ‚health’.
 

Its interesting to hear this view because as a Brit I much prefer Poland. I know some Poles in the UK feel the same and then also many who desperately wish to go back but have UK partners or jobs making it difficult.
 

Its definitely the start of the end, but it could take another 100 or more years to be fully the end.
The US has a very strong military so they can extend themselves as a power in a number of ways, for the most part it will be to the great suffering of the American people and those of any nation aligned with them. 
Sadly the UK will be even more of a vassal state moving forwards, as part of Americas empire (along with Australia and Canada).
Each country has long since shown that by fostering discontent among societal groups by allowing identity politics and the far left to hold the narrative they can increase their own power and build the modern day technological-totalitarian empire.
The far left are just the useful idiots they are using to usher it in. As we saw this year, they are masters of propaganda and manipulation of the mass consciousness. Those who are awake and dissent will be crushed.
It makes sense strategically if you can think like a mad man who doesn’t care about the population. In a civilisation decline you need much more control because social unrest will be high.
You need people to be psychologically damaged and manipulated so they remain disoriented and blind to their real threat, the massive threat, which is the government! 
We will see all the narratives coalesce eventually, the surveillance state, the biomedical interventions and restrictions, the hate speech laws that ban or outright criminalise those who oppose. Basically its all building to, well, totalitarianism in a modern form.
My advice is terrible to be honest, as it is to leave the UK. Its a floating prison. If you can’t then do your best to not be caught up in the mental warfare of the government, the maddened crowds, the in-fighting between different social groups, the forced ‘safety’ measures...and try to be as independent as you can financially and practically.
Apologies for my pessimism, ill end with a Ho! Ho! Ho! and a 😘

@Pete, I think you're correct that it will end up being a bit less than a 20% difference on top.  A few years ago, one dealer in Estonia was selling coins at the same price as others in Germany and Belgium despite the fact that Estonia had a genuine zero VAT regime and the others had to pay VAT at about 7% if I remember correctly.  There's a bit in the premium to play with and some dealers will do their best to reduce premiums and knock off the lower VAT rate.  It'll keep the UK market alive for a bit longer in the short term but everyone loses if British customers give up on silver as an investment and ultimately the RM will lose out through less sales overall.  The European dealers are the ones who stand to lose the most sales in my opinion.  Our British dealers already lost most of their silver market a long time ago but will experience a rise in buyers avoiding paying the post office handling charges.
Long term though, I'm not optimistic about the market continuing as before unless the government can be persuaded to abolish or align with the EU reduced VAT rates.  Let's not forget that the reason they supposedly weren't able to adjust this VAT rate before Brexit was because it was EU mandated VAT on silver (even though certain member states had an out in the open workaround allowed for their dealers).  Now that we are out and this excuse is no longer a valid way to deflect from the subject, (and with the recent commendable design effort put in by the RM) there is a small chance that fiscal conservatives will agree with the argument that it's an outrage that British Citizens are now being charged more than any other people anywhere in the rest of the world to own British legal tender!  It is outrageous and perhaps they'll see the logic of abolishing it to keep the RM in it's lucrative business.  I'm hoping that the RM will put forward a proposal to the chancellor in the coming months to request a review. If I was in charge I would certainly be using this moment to make the case.  After all, the chancellor got the mint to make a new 50p recently so perhaps they actually have a good working relationship with him.  This is where my hope lies.
Pretty much everyone who gets interested in silver learns quickly how not to pay the VAT(up to now at least).  Investment magazines such as Moneyweek have run many stories on how to buy silver at reduced or zero VAT and I'm pretty sure that it's not just astute forum members who've been aware of this.  I'd bet that the vast majority of Silver bought by UK buyers over the years has been purchased at the reduced VAT rates.  I certainly bought VAT free silver long before I ever heard about this forum and I'm sure that any large players will have been fully aware right from the start.
@BackyardBullion The abolition of the low value relief sounds like complete insanity to me.  And forcing foreign small businesses to register for UK VAT at source is fantasy.  If I was a small business exporting to the rest of the world and someone like New Zealand insisted that I fill out their special paperwork and register an account with them and collect taxes on their behalf and transfer them the money as well as keep quarterly accounts for them I know exactly what my response would be.  I'd just apologise to NZ customers and tell them that I can't sell to them any more.  If this idea comes into being as a long term solution by these Tory chumps it will cause hundreds of thousands of small businesses to refuse to export to us.  It's hardly surprising that these chumps have no vision.  They aren't the libertarians who came up with the Brexit plan in the first place and their views on tax don't align.  They simply stole Brexit and broke it.

Depending on means you can get (read purchase!) second passports for lots of smaller island nations which are options for people who want a get out of dodge card.
Outside of this, realistically, Europe is or should I say ‘was’ the most feasable option. 
Theres not much I like about the EU over Britain per se in terms of their power structure and crazy currency experiment but on the other hand for the little people like us, to escape government tyranny if we need to, theres advantages to not been ‘locked in’ in a country like Britain. Now Brits have lost freedom of movement it creates a real sense that everyone has been trapped into the socialist dystopia they are ushering in.
I only see massive state control and the white/ native population being thrown onto the sacrificial pyre. We all know this has began and is set to intensify in the coming years. Nobody cares about whitey and they want him or her silenced. Psychologically thats no way to live.
So back to Europe, I like the eastern countries. For me I like Poland for many reasons. (I know Poles would seriously frown on me calling their country Eastern Europe so ill say central-eastern 😂)
Economically they stand out. For a start they are not in the Euro so have control of their currency.
They only have a debt to GDP ratio of around 50% which is tiny to the rest of the EU and western economies.
They are still growing and will benefit even more now Britain has left the EU. Importantly despite this years corona madness and the debt explosion Poland has took a much smaller hit relative to other EU countries. So they have lots of capacity for more growth in the coming decade and increasing the standard of living for its citizens.
Also employment oppertunities are high, they had to bring in millions of Ukrainians these past few years because they didnt have enough Polish workers. Its also a great place for entrepreneurs as its well placed in Europe for access to wealthy countries like Germany.
A big one....SAFETY!
They rejected mass immigration from non EU countries and have had zero terrorism events.
They are a very proud nation who care strongly about retaining their sovereignty. Hence why they are one of the only large EU countries to out and out reject the far left takeover. No 10000 pronouns or hate speech laws or critical race theory, they simply reject it.  
So at present is a very safe country and has far less flashpoints for the marxists to exploit. In my experience they are tolerant people but also predominantly ethnically Polish meaning the cultural uprisings we see in the west have much less tinder to ignite it.
Another benefit is cost of living, its still very cheap to live in Poland and even poorer people usually have their own house and maybe some land. They also have some of the cheapest food prices in Europe. A lot is homegrown too meaning food security and less chance of future shortages.
Of course there are risks too, Poland was wiped off the map for hundreds of years, multiple times...geographically it is vulnerable defence wise. The EU spew out lots of propaganda against Poland too so they are creating a potential future situation in which the rest of the EU turn against them again. Violently? Not on the near horizon but perhaps one day if we did see a new world war.
Water shortages is an issue longer term.
Also demographics. But thats a shared issue. Anyways Ive rambled on too long. Just some thoughts. My other pick would be Estonia but thats for another day 😆

Its definitely the start of the end, but it could take another 100 or more years to be fully the end.
The US has a very strong military so they can extend themselves as a power in a number of ways, for the most part it will be to the great suffering of the American people and those of any nation aligned with them. 
Sadly the UK will be even more of a vassal state moving forwards, as part of Americas empire (along with Australia and Canada).
Each country has long since shown that by fostering discontent among societal groups by allowing identity politics and the far left to hold the narrative they can increase their own power and build the modern day technological-totalitarian empire.
The far left are just the useful idiots they are using to usher it in. As we saw this year, they are masters of propaganda and manipulation of the mass consciousness. Those who are awake and dissent will be crushed.
It makes sense strategically if you can think like a mad man who doesn’t care about the population. In a civilisation decline you need much more control because social unrest will be high.
You need people to be psychologically damaged and manipulated so they remain disoriented and blind to their real threat, the massive threat, which is the government! 
We will see all the narratives coalesce eventually, the surveillance state, the biomedical interventions and restrictions, the hate speech laws that ban or outright criminalise those who oppose. Basically its all building to, well, totalitarianism in a modern form.
My advice is terrible to be honest, as it is to leave the UK. Its a floating prison. If you can’t then do your best to not be caught up in the mental warfare of the government, the maddened crowds, the in-fighting between different social groups, the forced ‘safety’ measures...and try to be as independent as you can financially and practically.
Apologies for my pessimism, ill end with a Ho! Ho! Ho! and a 😘

I am in same thoughts. It feels like we are at III World War.  The Governments has spread a terror of fear, dividing people, so they will fight each other, not seeing that they sold their freedom for pennies.. Live in Scotland now. Been in Bannockurn, at visitor centre. And there is written in stone. What happened with this proud nation? There is a reason why Scotland is known to be the most socialist/communist country in Europe now.. where the First Minister has to instruct People how to use cutlery at the table.. People stopped thinking, as TV is doing that for them. In Poland we remember well the Martial Law were in force (1981-83), with the only difference that there are no tanks on the streets, but Police, and no secret agents spying but Covidians calling cops and informing Services (go back to 40's and see how similar it is to Ghettos where Nazis separated Jews from others, marked them, and not allowed to leave those part of cities). This is a new War, where a weapon is all media controlled by Governments (amount of censorship and blocking YT and websites of those who tell the truth is growing). Looks like the idea is to kill all small business, destroy middle class, and make only big Corpo and Government jobs. Noone inform about more protest in France, what people of Denmark has fought  - for days banging in pots in front of parliament, to call back a bill allowing Government to vaccine by force anyone. Noone mention about thousand of lorry drivers, who been helped by common people and abandoned by services (sorry, police was there to pacify those who has been locked with no water, food, fuel or toilet for many days)..
To save my mental health, I do a low information diet - I not watch TV (for years now), and only read online article that in my interest.
But back to the topic, looks like it is more like a time to focus more on the gold than silver now for a longer time investment.
Sorry for OFF Top
.

Its definitely the start of the end, but it could take another 100 or more years to be fully the end.
The US has a very strong military so they can extend themselves as a power in a number of ways, for the most part it will be to the great suffering of the American people and those of any nation aligned with them. 
Sadly the UK will be even more of a vassal state moving forwards, as part of Americas empire (along with Australia and Canada).
Each country has long since shown that by fostering discontent among societal groups by allowing identity politics and the far left to hold the narrative they can increase their own power and build the modern day technological-totalitarian empire.
The far left are just the useful idiots they are using to usher it in. As we saw this year, they are masters of propaganda and manipulation of the mass consciousness. Those who are awake and dissent will be crushed.
It makes sense strategically if you can think like a mad man who doesn’t care about the population. In a civilisation decline you need much more control because social unrest will be high.
You need people to be psychologically damaged and manipulated so they remain disoriented and blind to their real threat, the massive threat, which is the government! 
We will see all the narratives coalesce eventually, the surveillance state, the biomedical interventions and restrictions, the hate speech laws that ban or outright criminalise those who oppose. Basically its all building to, well, totalitarianism in a modern form.
My advice is terrible to be honest, as it is to leave the UK. Its a floating prison. If you can’t then do your best to not be caught up in the mental warfare of the government, the maddened crowds, the in-fighting between different social groups, the forced ‘safety’ measures...and try to be as independent as you can financially and practically.
Apologies for my pessimism, ill end with a Ho! Ho! Ho! and a 😘

Its definitely the start of the end, but it could take another 100 or more years to be fully the end.
The US has a very strong military so they can extend themselves as a power in a number of ways, for the most part it will be to the great suffering of the American people and those of any nation aligned with them. 
Sadly the UK will be even more of a vassal state moving forwards, as part of Americas empire (along with Australia and Canada).
Each country has long since shown that by fostering discontent among societal groups by allowing identity politics and the far left to hold the narrative they can increase their own power and build the modern day technological-totalitarian empire.
The far left are just the useful idiots they are using to usher it in. As we saw this year, they are masters of propaganda and manipulation of the mass consciousness. Those who are awake and dissent will be crushed.
It makes sense strategically if you can think like a mad man who doesn’t care about the population. In a civilisation decline you need much more control because social unrest will be high.
You need people to be psychologically damaged and manipulated so they remain disoriented and blind to their real threat, the massive threat, which is the government! 
We will see all the narratives coalesce eventually, the surveillance state, the biomedical interventions and restrictions, the hate speech laws that ban or outright criminalise those who oppose. Basically its all building to, well, totalitarianism in a modern form.
My advice is terrible to be honest, as it is to leave the UK. Its a floating prison. If you can’t then do your best to not be caught up in the mental warfare of the government, the maddened crowds, the in-fighting between different social groups, the forced ‘safety’ measures...and try to be as independent as you can financially and practically.
Apologies for my pessimism, ill end with a Ho! Ho! Ho! and a 😘

England is so done, all thats left are the few remaining crumbs of a democracy.
Now it becomes something new. It will be great if your a neo marxist environmentalist who doesn’t want to work and hates free speech, free movement and logic....but for the rest of Britain it will be a survaillance state dystopia in which all aspects of life are dictated by the state. 2021 post brexit and under the guise of covid it will be ramped up big style, there is no escape now and I think history will increasingly come see that Brexit served not to keep others out but to trap Brits in during this phase of history.

I think we had this discussion before on this forum, and as fare as I remember you are obligated to declare metal value not face value when entering UK, the same when you leave UK.

England is so done, all thats left are the few remaining crumbs of a democracy.
Now it becomes something new. It will be great if your a neo marxist environmentalist who doesn’t want to work and hates free speech, free movement and logic....but for the rest of Britain it will be a survaillance state dystopia in which all aspects of life are dictated by the state. 2021 post brexit and under the guise of covid it will be ramped up big style, there is no escape now and I think history will increasingly come see that Brexit served not to keep others out but to trap Brits in during this phase of history.

What do you mean by peak interest?

Having spent many years abroad working in the middle east and Asia, I returned to the UK a few years ago and was struck by just how socialist it has become.  Perhaps it was being away for so long that let me see it in a new light or perhaps it really is becoming more intrusive.  A bit of both I suspect.
The free (but always failing) NHS is a classic example of socialist utopian thinking.  But that's a topic which many are unable to view dispassionately due to the relentless conditioning.  This year it was pumped really hard.
No.  Free of tax duty etc up to £390 at the airport (total value of all possessions on you including potentially your laptop if it's reasonably new looking) is free of tax.  It's an old number that hasn't changed in a long time.  A duty free limit if you like for goods brought into the UK which aren't tobacco perfume or alcohol.  Above that value the tax man unzips.

Merry Christmas everyone 😂

England is so done, all thats left are the few remaining crumbs of a democracy.
Now it becomes something new. It will be great if your a neo marxist environmentalist who doesn’t want to work and hates free speech, free movement and logic....but for the rest of Britain it will be a survaillance state dystopia in which all aspects of life are dictated by the state. 2021 post brexit and under the guise of covid it will be ramped up big style, there is no escape now and I think history will increasingly come see that Brexit served not to keep others out but to trap Brits in during this phase of history.

Agreed, if you were an alien you would see it as such because it is the case. I went to the dentist couple months back and he is a South African and during conversation regarding The Boer War, The British and World perception of us I asked, did he see us as a "free democracy" or a socialist/communist state? He saw the country as socialist. We are certainly not as "free" as we are led to believe.

Yes I think it's more likely that gold will have VAT slapped on it that silver getting VAT removed. If I was an alien who just landed in Britain without knowing any of it's history, I'd see the country as very socialist and moving towards communism.

One of the purposes of leaving the EU was to regain the ability to adjust our own taxes such as VAT.  It's all well and good to finally regain this ability (if we actually have) but it does also require a vision for the future to go along with it.  Sadly I don't see the Tory party as having any actual vision or energy left.  They're acting like a tired and half dead party at the end of a very long term in power.  They certainly don't look like they've just won a historic majority.
I haven't heard much talk of any vision to abolish VAT for a very long time now.  Basically they gave up on all of the benefits of Brexit in the quest for a deal.  VAT is an insidious and damaging EU tax and there is certainly a case at least to be argued for abolishing or reducing it.  Instead, I imagine that the same dismal and prohibitive system that's currently in place when trading with the USA now will just end up being the norm with the EU as well.  It was always sold as a benefit that once we were out we could do what we wanted with our tariffs and taxes.  But the EU have been adamant all along about a level playing field and I suspect that buried deep in this deal is some provision to stop us from making any radical changes.  I hope I'm wrong of course and no doubt when the thousands of pages have been carefully cross referenced we'll find out the situation.
Given the eyewatering cost of all the lockdowns this year I can't see any breaks coming from HMRC for the rest of my life.  The grand socialist-style employment scheme for a lucky group of people who got to stay at home and be paid will need to be paid back or hyper inflated away.  This payment will come not only from those who were lucky enough to be paid to sit at home but by everyone else as well who actually had to keep working or spending their savings this year.  The greatest wealth transfer in human history has taken place in the shadows and we're all going to be expected to cough up for it for the foreseeable future.  It is this disastrous financial reality that has derailed any vision of a free UK that the government had before the coof.  It was originally UKIP who had all the vision anyway and this Tory party just stole it to win power.  Their hearts were never into it really and now that times are tough I see them turning their backs on any bold moves.  I don't see them finding new vision to reduce taxes such as VAT but who knows.  
I heard in the local off licence that talk amongst the alcohol traders is that VAT is going to go up to 25% in the new year!  Clearly they're nervous about it and they've good reason to be.  Rather than a cash strapped HMRC abandoning VAT entirely (which would be an incredible shot in the arm for the UK) they're far more likely to be increasing it on goods which can be publicly attacked as being owned by "the rich".  If it turns out to be true that alcohol and other products suffer an increase in VAT, it's highly likely that Silver will find itself under pressure as well in my opinion.  As we all know, the silver market barely exists in the UK because of the VAT.  And we all know that if they abolished VAT, the Royal Mint and other bullion dealers would actually become competitive again here in the UK.  The industry would be reborn, generating at least some tax on profit and wages which would surely be more than the pittance they take now.  Sadly it's more likely that they're planning to hire armies of staff to open packages from the EU and charge VAT on everything.  This will be seen as a much needed windfall in the short term and it's likely that everything possible will be clubbed.
Just have to wait and see, but given this governments insane authoritarian bent of late, I have absolutely no confidence in them to do anything rational.  I can only hope that I'm wrong.

Thanks @Realwealthuprising for the beautiful 2019 proof Dutch gold Ducat. A short while after buying it from the Silverforum I picked up a 1927 bullion Ducat from a Sydney auction. 

Charts 😂 

Very happy indeed with today's deliveries. Firstly to @ifing for my Rwanda cheetah.and secondly to @Realwealthuprising for the most amazing 2 rand. Always Love to trade silver for gold and am very happy with how amazing this coin is in hand 😁👍

People taking an interest in the price of a new coin and recognising a lot of dodgy bidding isn't envy. Some of the people commenting on the fishy goings on actually own the coin so it cant be assumed everyone is envious.
Its also not disbelief it could sell for £20000, not for me anyways. Thats actually why im surprised theres been this kind of thing. I understand why someone who owns the coin might not want any criticism at all of an auction with a high sale price even when it was shill bidded greatly because they worry it might effect their own sale...but its a bit disingenuous to criticise others who mention it. The discussion cannot be only mention good things. If you own the coin there is no reason to be so defensive the coin is clearly going to be a great profit, unless its your auction then why worry that there are people highlighting dodgy bidding on a coin thread about that coin. The discussion turned to looking at the auctions and that was what happened and was why it was discussed.