Surface hairlines

[SilverTanner]

I now have my latest batch of coins back from NGC - many thanks Numi.

As I have now had several coins with the dreaded 'surface hairlines' I hoped I would be able to tell what they were particularly given that one 1839 sixpence got MS61 and the other 1839 sixpence got 'UNC Details Surface Hairlines'. The 'details' coin is a much higher grade than the MS61 and probably MS63/64 if it hadn't got 'details'

Having compared all of my slabbed sixpences, both via Numi and those bought already slabbed, I will now have a guess at what 'surface hairlines' are.

The 'details' sixpence has a small group of VERY VERY FINE lines running diagonally on the reverse under the word PENCE. Lines of this type are also on all the other sixpences which graded OK however they are more parallel on the 'details' coin whereas they are a bit more random on the 'normal' coins even if the latter are a lot more obvious and tend to just result in a lower grade. As they are so fine these are very difficult to see most of the time but are evident only at a certain angle and in a certain light and I would be amazed if they would show up in the photos most auction houses normally use

The 1848 sixpence 'details' coin also has a similar small group running vertically from below the P of PENCE almost to the S of SIX on the reverse and the 1817 half-sovereign also has a small group at the back of the neck on the obverse. I guess these are just from a slight rub against some fabric at some point, not surprising for older circulation coins that would have been in pockets etc.

For now I will go with this interpretation and hopefully not get any more 'surface hairlines'

[sovereignsteve]

I seriously think NGC are out of order with these hairlines deathslabs. It sounds like yours are barely perceptible and could easily occur from normal wear and tear. Unless they can be 100% sure these have occured from external interference eg cleaning rather than natural wear, they should not be doing this.

[SilverTanner]

21 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

I seriously think NGC are out of order with these hairlines deathslabs. It sounds like yours are barely perceptible and could easily occur from normal wear and tear. Unless they can be 100% sure these have occured from external interference eg cleaning rather than natural wear, they should not be doing this.

I agree but then I would say that wouldn't I!

Hairlines from cleaning, polishing etc are usually very obvious and as such should definitely be mentioned when describing a coin. These 'surface hairlines', if that's what they are, however are very unlikely to be from deliberate interference and more likely just from slight contact, even just touching the face of a coin with a gloved hand. On my examples they are a little more obvious on the gold rather than the silver though.

Out of curiosity I gave a selection of 'details' and 'normal' coins to a friend who has more than 30 years experience with coins, writes academic numismatic articles and works with some museums, auction houses etc - he couldn't see the lines unless using a 40x loupe and then only at the correct angle/light etc (he did pick up every ding, bag mark, flan irregularity etc!). For the 1839 sixpence he agreed the 'details' coin was a much higher grade that the MS61 and that NGC were being 'silly' (not his actual words given this is a public forum)

[sovereignsteve]

Sounds to me NGC should be avoided for old numismatics then, unless PCGS are similarly guilty.

[Guest]

Death Repair Hairlines Fakes Altered Surfaces - the nasty side of our great hobby...all on one juicy video

[Modem21]

Thank you for the education

[SilverTanner]

19 hours ago, shortstack68 said:

Hairlines coming from cleaning usually all flow in the same direction and are in multiple hairlines, when you have 1 or 2 on a coin then this is from the years of being in circulation and i really believe that NGC and PCGS for that matter haven't got a proper grip on this situation nor can they differentiate between these. The 1902 Proofs are an example and they have no idea of the historic wiping that the RM at the time did before placing them in the case for issue, but it's a part of these sets history and in my opinion shouldn't be slapped down for it

@SilverTanner i would be interested to hear where you bought your death slab coins from if you still have the paperwork to hand (more interested if it were UK auction houses)

At the moment the TPGs seem to have much less experience with world coins than US coins (no surprise) and even less with non-gold world coins so the specifics for these they just don't seem to be aware of - like the 1902 proofs. For example the recent 1848/6 sixpence is the only one NGC have ever graded (and then got the label wrong!) and some coins in the current/next batch(es) will also be the first, or second, examples they have seen but my rationale for grading them is to protect the coin and provide an official record of it (and make it a lot easier to sell for a good price in the future).

The coins I have submitted/plan to submit shortly cover 11 dealers (most UK) and 15 Auction Houses (most UK but also EU and USA) so I don't think I should disclose where the four coins with 'surface hairlines' came from due to the low number and that same sources have also had coins come back OK. However I will say that so far it is a mix of UK dealers and UK auction houses.

[SilverTanner]

19 hours ago, Numistacker said:

Death Repair Hairlines Fakes Altered Surfaces - the nasty side of our great hobby...all on one juicy video
 

I absolutely agree with the comment that to make sure you don't get a 'details' grade is to buy a slabbed coin - this is what I have been doing for quite a few years now and is surprisingly difficult given the some of the handful of top grade examples are already in NGC/PCGS registry sets or haven't actually appeared at auction. However, even for the more 'common' dates for some world coin denominations there may be less than 10 examples graded compared to 1000's of similar US coins meaning that the only way to get a graded example to submit it yourself (or ask @Numistacker nicely) and for a rare coin the chance of picking up a graded one of the very few recorded is extremely low so again these will have to be submitted. I think there are only two examples of one of the sixpences I intend to submit in the next batch so we will see what NGC make of it!