China - The real threat to us?

[Carpe Diem]

ok slightly provocative title, I don't mean China as a nation.  More the fakes coming out of China.

 

I've often heard experienced people making the point that fake coins coming from China are becoming more realistic and better quality.  If any of you have seen this video from CyberCurtainTwitcher where he compares a fake 2013 silver Panda with a real one, save for the heavy embossing they look pretty damn close to the real one.  Of course, with the right equipment you can judge a fake by measuring weight, thickness etc but the question is whether in the future the fakes are so close to the real ones (both aesthetically and in weight/thickeness) that without melting the coin down or showering it in nitric acid then few will be able to tell the difference.  

 

Other factors to consider for producing fake coins are that the metals used are too heavy or that they don't give that distinctive "ring" when dropped but I'm just putting it out there as a discussion that I think we should consider - and that is around the liquidity of what we collect.

 

 

[Ares]

When fakes become indistinguishable from the real thing, then for all intents and purposes they are the real thing.

For the vast majority, weight to 2 decimal places and accurate measurement of thickness and diameter checked alongside catalogued specifications is good enough. These should be standard tools now IMO.

As always, be vigilant!

[motorbikez]

That's one of the reasons i haven't got into the Pandas too many fakes about,you should be OK buying from commercial dealers.Going back 5 years or so should be OK as well.

 

But if you go back to the 90s some of the 1 ozers make big money and if you buy a duffer its going to cost you.

 

Like most collecting there is a fairly steep learning curve and this is particularly so with Pandas due to the amount of duffers out there.

[garthy]

I have one panda and it's a fake, but you wouldn't know it by looking at it, I like them but wont be purchasing any more due to the high number of fakes and the lack of cracking down on the counterfeiters.

Also the china mint and others need to be doing more to make their coins even harder to copy. What the canadian mint have done with the 2014 maple is great as well as the sunshine mint with their decoder lens, with so many panda fakes out there the china mint should've come up with something by now.

[Danny-boy]

I have one panda and it's a fake, but you wouldn't know it by looking at it

I'm going to have to disagree with that Garth, I have yet to see a fake that can't be distinguished visually if you know what to look for.

[Ares]

I'm going to have to disagree with that Garth, I have yet to see a fake that can't be distinguished visually if you know what to look for.

Which is the kicker, but considering there's horrendous numbers of legitimate images to check with so it shouldn't be a problem. Heck, could even check for existing fakes online to see the telltale areas where the quality of a fake doesn't match up typically.

Again, it's just legwork. But generally should always give it a going over with the usual methods.

[Agpanda]

I most fear the day when they starting to counterfit older coins using .999 silver.

Due too the higher prices on older coins that would still be a huge profit.

[Danny-boy]

I most fear the day when they starting to counterfit older coins using .999 silver.

Due too the higher prices on older coins that would still be a huge profit.

Yes, I have heard of this happening before with some of the rarer Morgans.

Makes it rather difficult to distinguish I'd imagine, you'd really have to be very clued up to visually spot a fake.

[Carpe Diem]

So do you believe one of the ways to guard against finding yourself lumbered with an illiquid stack in future would be a move towards graded / authenticated coins by PCGS for example?  In other words, what is the likelihood that the only coins that could be easily sold are those that have had a professional authentication?  

 

Who thinks this could be a possible result of the situation where we are literally swamped with fakes across a whole range of coins?

[Danny-boy]

Unfortunately the Chinese are quite adept at counterfeit slabbed coins also, so that presents the same problem.

[Carpe Diem]

Unfortunately the Chinese are quite adept at counterfeit slabbed coins also, so that presents the same problem.

 

damn those pesky Peking pests.

 

But what about PCGS for example, they have a unique reference number to validate the coin was give the once over by them, no?  How possible is it that there will be a mass grading by them for people's coins.

 

I appreciate that's quite extreme, but in theory it's a way that people can prove the authenticity and I can't think of any other ways you might do that.

[motorbikez]

I'm going to have to disagree with that Garth, I have yet to see a fake that can't be distinguished visually if you know what to look for.

 

How many rare 1oz Pandas from the 90s have you seen or handled in the flesh Danny.You've hit the nail on the head yourself (If you know what to look for) the thing is most people don't that's why you have to buiild up an expertise in the area you collect then you won't get stung.

 

I think our resident expert on pandas( Dave panda)has bought a duffer before and he has numerous books on the subject plus a large collection of pandas.

[Danny-boy]

How many rare 1oz Pandas from the 90s have you seen or handled in the flesh Danny.You've hit the nail on the head yourself (If you know what to look for) the thing is most people don't that's why you have to buiild up an expertise in the area you collect then you won't get stung.

I think our resident expert on pandas( Dave panda)has bought a duffer before and he has numerous books on the subject plus a large collection of pandas.

None, but that's a moot point.

Before I purchased, I would do my research as you quite rightly suggest.

I stand by my point, that "I" have never seen a counterfeit panda that was visually indistinguishable from the genuine article.

[Carpe Diem]

Anyone interested in placing an order from Liu (need PCGS to authenticate whether that's a male or female name) who makes up to 2000 different coins then visit this site.  

 

(Liu if you're reading this I want a cut.  Or at least a free fake coin.  Or a pack of prawn crackers.  ta.)

[DavePanda]

Obviously I have more interest in these coins than the average stacker, however to dismiss this most interesting subsection of our hobby due to fear of fakes is understandable but an overreaction I believe.

I have gone above and beyond with these coins, learning everything I can about them, also other Chinese coins, however I strongly believe that you can hugely limit the potential poor purchase of fake coins with a little common sense mixed in with a few easy rules.

1) Never buy a Panda COIN without a value on it.. Lots of fakes dont have the yuan value shown.. Panda Medals i.e Munich Pandas do not have a date on, however they are probably not for most collectors anyway.

2) If a coin has a plastic seal on it after 2006 it has either been aftermarket resealed (suspicious at best) or is a fake.

3) Check the Panda matches the year stated (amazingly some fakes get the wrong year!)

4) Look at photos of genuine Pandas, fakes have poor fur quality and poor eyes generally, when you see them side by side even in photos, stands out a mile.

5) Purchase your coins from genuine dealers or ebayers that have considerable feedback dealing with coins..

6) Dont buy from China low priced common year coins to save a few pounds.. not worth it

7)Never buy a 2000 panda that is completely mirrored on the Temple side that is less than £600!! Usually has a black nose on the Panda, the 2000 is the most counterfeited coin, the black nose comes from the thin silver plating rubbing off! The mirrored Panda was for the Chinese market, frosted around the edge was for export, 99% of totally mirrored temple sides are fake.

8)Plastic seals with rounded edges are not genuine.

9) Buy a book..most recommended Peter Anthony gold and silver panda book.. Full of photos and info, £55 gets you a guide to a fascinating collecting hobby, limits the risk, for the price of a coin.. Buy the book then buy the coin!!

10) Please dont buy coins off ebay from sellers who have just joined, have odd user names, usually less than 5 feedback, these are 99% conmen.

 

 

For reassurance the fake that I purchased that MZ mentioned, please do not let that put you off.. I checked the Photo of the coin on ebay.. Ok, checked feedback Ok, even recognised another collector who had left good feedback for a similar coin, coin arrived, this was not the coin in the photo, rechecked the feedback of this person and the feedback had been updated by the person I recognised saying he had realised that the coin was a fake.. Moral is I got stung and was nothing I could do about it, this is one case and only the one case that I have purchased a fake Panda out of many purchases I have made.. The only coins so far that have been faked that anyone with a little experience would have trouble with identifying are the 83,84 and 85 coins, these I would purchase graded after checking the numbers online at NGC or PCGS, due to the simple easy to fake designs.

 

Regards

Dave

[DavePanda]

Errrr.... should say, Panda medals don't have a VALUE not Date.. It was in the middle of the night!

[HighlandTiger]

I most fear the day when they starting to counterfit older coins using .999 silver.

Due too the higher prices on older coins that would still be a huge profit.

I look forward to the days when they start counterfeiting basic Bullion coins using .999 silver. I might be able to get coins closer to spot value. Great for us stackers, but a nightmare for you numi boys   

[motorbikez]

Obviously I have more interest in these coins than the average stacker, however to dismiss this most interesting subsection of our hobby due to fear of fakes is understandable but an overreaction I believe.

I have gone above and beyond with these coins, learning everything I can about them, also other Chinese coins, however I strongly believe that you can hugely limit the potential poor purchase of fake coins with a little common sense mixed in with a few easy rules.

1) Never buy a Panda COIN without a value on it.. Lots of fakes dont have the yuan value shown.. Panda Medals i.e Munich Pandas do not have a date on, however they are probably not for most collectors anyway.

2) If a coin has a plastic seal on it after 2006 it has either been aftermarket resealed (suspicious at best) or is a fake.

3) Check the Panda matches the year stated (amazingly some fakes get the wrong year!)

4) Look at photos of genuine Pandas, fakes have poor fur quality and poor eyes generally, when you see them side by side even in photos, stands out a mile.

5) Purchase your coins from genuine dealers or ebayers that have considerable feedback dealing with coins..

6) Dont buy from China low priced common year coins to save a few pounds.. not worth it

7)Never buy a 2000 panda that is completely mirrored on the Temple side that is less than £600!! Usually has a black nose on the Panda, the 2000 is the most counterfeited coin, the black nose comes from the thin silver plating rubbing off! The mirrored Panda was for the Chinese market, frosted around the edge was for export, 99% of totally mirrored temple sides are fake.

8)Plastic seals with rounded edges are not genuine.

9) Buy a book..most recommended Peter Anthony gold and silver panda book.. Full of photos and info, £55 gets you a guide to a fascinating collecting hobby, limits the risk, for the price of a coin.. Buy the book then buy the coin!!

10) Please dont buy coins off ebay from sellers who have just joined, have odd user names, usually less than 5 feedback, these are 99% conmen.

 

 

For reassurance the fake that I purchased that MZ mentioned, please do not let that put you off.. I checked the Photo of the coin on ebay.. Ok, checked feedback Ok, even recognised another collector who had left good feedback for a similar coin, coin arrived, this was not the coin in the photo, rechecked the feedback of this person and the feedback had been updated by the person I recognised saying he had realised that the coin was a fake.. Moral is I got stung and was nothing I could do about it, this is one case and only the one case that I have purchased a fake Panda out of many purchases I have made.. The only coins so far that have been faked that anyone with a little experience would have trouble with identifying are the 83,84 and 85 coins, these I would purchase graded after checking the numbers online at NGC or PCGS, due to the simple easy to fake designs.

 

Regards

Dave

 

  Thanks very much for your input Dave,moral of the story do your research and the do some more research.if you follow Dave's advise you should be OK.