Fake Perth Mints

[Mcgrimes]

Hi guys, I'm seeing a lot of 1oz Perth mint gold bars (in tamper proof case) on eBay listed as genuine,

But im also seeing a few listed as fake (plated); they look exactly the same,

Really, I'll I'm seeing is Perth mint in the higher denominations,

Ive bid on a few, anything to lookout for should I win one?

First thing I would do is a specific gravity test, but I'm still concerned.

[Clens92]

24 minutes ago, Mcgrimes said:

Hi guys, I'm seeing a lot of 1oz Perth mint gold bars (in tamper proof case) on eBay listed as genuine,

But im also seeing a few listed as fake (plated); they look exactly the same,

Really, I'll I'm seeing is Perth mint in the higher denominations,

Ive bid on a few, anything to lookout for should I win one?

First thing I would do is a specific gravity test, but I'm still concerned.

 

There is only one safe method: do not buy Perth Mint gold off ebay.  It's like finding yourself in a minefield, without a map.  You're more likely to get stung than get a win.

[Roy]

Natural selection.

[Stu]

Don't search for a deal on the bay, it's is full of sharks and scammers and the company itself has no interest in barring them as they make plenty money from them.

my advise is to by bullion from the dealers or do a bit of research and buy from dealers or mints with a view to flipping/ selling on after a period of time. If you get stung for an Oz of gold on eBay that is a very big loss to recover. I have been stacking for over 2 years and have never bought FA on eBay PM wise over that period. 

[Paul]

Buy from a respected bullion dealer  or mnt direct - sinple as - each and everytime and always. A 1% saving on eBay that makes you 100% loss in 20 years time when you cash in isn't good investment

[Mcgrimes]

Whilst I recognise that a lot of ebay bullion is fake, how would you know that the bullion you bought from a dealer, in a tamper proof case, is real?

There's some people with high feedback selling, 1000+.

Even if I bought from somewhere else, I still need to make sure it's real, right? 

Additionally, you get buyer protection through eBay, if it's fake, then you get a refund; if not, then you're a few% below spot.

[sovereignsteve]

16 hours ago, Stu said:

Don't search for a deal on the bay, it's is full of sharks and scammers and the company itself has no interest in barring them as they make plenty money from them.

my advise is to by bullion from the dealers or do a bit of research and buy from dealers or mints with a view to flipping/ selling on after a period of time. If you get stung for an Oz of gold on eBay that is a very big loss to recover. I have been stacking for over 2 years and have never bought FA on eBay PM wise over that period. 

You are missing good deals on ebay all the time. Sure it's full of sharks but with care it's fine, but only with coins.

The problem is buying bars, full stop. How the hell can you sure they're genuine if in a tamperproof case wherever you buy?

Only safe place is the mint or a dealer that gets supplies direct from the mint.

[Pete]

A gold coin is really easy to spot as a fake.
You measure its dimensions and weight accurately using vernier callipers or micrometer and using precision jewellery electronic scales.
A fake coin will either be ( significantly ) underweight and / or oversize generally both underweight and too thick.

A bar however will require a specific gravity test but this is easy to do but requires a bit of background know-how.

For those of you who rely 100% on well known "dealers' mentioned regularly elsewhere; I received a fake sovereign once from one of them.
My calculations showed the coin to be 18 carat and not 22 carat, so a jewellers copy.
How it got through the alleged gold tests when this dealer bought it remains a puzzle but it was replaced without any problem.

It would be helpful to know how suppliers like HGM, Atkinsons, BullionbyPost, Chards etc check their incoming bars bought from Joe Public.
You might buy, unknowingly, a good fake bar on e-Bay then offer it later to one of these companies for cash so how do they test ?
As I stated earlier, coins are easy but how to they cope on the spot with bars ??

[Mcgrimes]

I understand the dilemma; if I buy a sealed bar, I will simply open it and test it,

if it's just below spot then I'm not concerned with a return on the premium; I always prepare as if I'd be selling to a dealer anyway.

as you say, there is potential for a good deal, some people do stick to ebay. But as we all know, there are plenty of fakes,

but, my point in question isn't just for ebay, what about if someone mistakenly sells a fake on the forum?

There are plenty of Perth fakes currently according to coincommunity,

im also sceptical about this on at UKBullion; thoughts?

https://www.ukbullion.com/casualty-corner/perth-mint-1-ounce-green-certicard-gold-bar-previously-owned.html

additionally, this was a bar I almost won on ebay; any thoughts?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/112236276583?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[MikeOxlong]

I remember seeing a good video on perth fake bars, not sure where im afraid 

[BackyardBullion]

I have read stories that buyers will order your real perth mint bar and then swap it out with a fake of theor own, then pursue you through ebay buyer guarantee for a refund and send you back the fake. Be very carful selling what is possibly the most faked piece of precious metal on all of ebay!

[Pampfan]

Most people who have real 1 ounce bars would never sell them on eBay.  I myself would never sell it on eBay because in every case I would get less money than if I were to go to a dealer and sell direct.  For example if spot is $1000, after eBay and PayPal fees I would need to sell the bar for $1,140 just to get spot. Why would anyone on eBay pay $140 over spot to get my bar when eBay bullion dealers are only charging $4.99 to $29.99 per ounce over spot.

Thus, 

no normal person would sell real bars on ebay because they would be losing money.  If you are selling a fake bar it doesn't matter.

In many of these auctions the seller feedback rating is 10 or less.

if the deal seems to good to be true it probably is. Why would someone give $1,000 in cash for only $900. You are being gamed, scammed, etc.

That being said - you can get some real bars when you buy the deals from the bullion houses on eBay - where you can use credit cards that earn cash back rewards .  Currently Apmex is selling 1 ounce gold valcambi bars for 2.99 over spot. Current cost is $1,140.49 per bar.  Pay with 2% rewards credit card = get back $22.80 so actual cost of bar is $20 less than spot.

 

[Pampfan]

The one problem with these deals is that the bullion houses have advance information on were spot is heading and they need to liquidate quickly. So you may buy cheap but still lose in the end.

[Mcgrimes]

Not sure I agree with your math, ebay fees are capped at £40, which is near enough 5% of current spot price for one ounce,

therefore, if I buy at 1% over spot, then the seller should get 95-96% of spot (inc PayPal fees etc), which is what some U.K. Dealers will pay,

Not quite the 14% hit you discussed,

Anyway, you're lucky, us Brit's would kill for the Apmex deals you can get!

25 minutes ago, Pampfan said:

Most people who have real 1 ounce bars would never sell them on eBay.  I myself would never sell it on eBay because in every case I would get less money than if I were to go to a dealer and sell direct.  For example if spot is $1000, after eBay and PayPal fees I would need to sell the bar for $1,140 just to get spot. Why would anyone on eBay pay $140 over spot to get my bar when eBay bullion dealers are only charging $4.99 to $29.99 per ounce over spot.

Thus, 

no normal person would sell real bars on ebay because they would be losing money.  If you are selling a fake bar it doesn't matter.

In many of these auctions the seller feedback rating is 10 or less.

if the deal seems to good to be true it probably is. Why would someone give $1,000 in cash for only $900. You are being gamed, scammed, etc.

That being said - you can get some real bars when you buy the deals from the bullion houses on eBay - where you can use credit cards that earn cash back rewards .  Currently Apmex is selling 1 ounce gold valcambi bars for 2.99 over spot. Current cost is $1,140.49 per bar.  Pay with 2% rewards credit card = get back $22.80 so actual cost of bar is $20 less than spot.

 

 

[sovereignsteve]

1 hour ago, Mcgrimes said:

 ebay fees are capped at £40,

Don't think that's right. If you're sure, please post the link to this info.

If I remember correctly, they used to be capped at about £70 - 100 but I think they upped this to about £250

[Pampfan]

No cap on eBay fees in the usa

[HelpingHands]

The cap used to be £40 then went to something like £75 now I don't think there is a cap.

It was £40 for a long time though.

[sovereignsteve]

I think it was £75 about 5 years ago when i was selling some 3 coin proof sets for about £1k to take advantage.

Fees now max £250 ffv

http://sellercentre.ebay.co.uk/private/what-fees-youll-pay

[GoldBenj]

@Pete I'm sure the vast majority of the big bullion houses worth their salt know what they are handling, if they had any doubt, they would use an XRF precious metal analysis like this one..

[Mcgrimes]

1 hour ago, sovereignsteve said:

I think it was £75 about 5 years ago when i was selling some 3 coin proof sets for about £1k to take advantage.

Fees now max £250 ffv

http://sellercentre.ebay.co.uk/private/what-fees-youll-pay

Good spot; it's obviously been a while since I sold anything in ebay, despite the thread I actually dislike ebay!

Thats just reason enough to know no gold on ebay is real!

but back to my point, just be aware of the high number of fake Perth mints currently on the market, according to the coin community there's a recent batch that are very similar to the real thing