Advice how to allocate £3000/4000 for teenage son

[HelpingHands]

I think the colourised coins which do well are the ones which do not have a non-colourised version.

There is not a plain silver proof peter rabbit 50p.

Are the monkey kings coloured only?

[FriedrichVonHayek]

16 minutes ago, HawkHybrid said:

 

and if you can complete this investment strategy with a working crystal

ball?(keep to the point, colourised coins are not the only coins that are

traded by 99% of the general public)

 

colourised coins are poorer quality coins. how often do you see

collectors brag about their colourised coins to fellow collectors?

(for the record, I'm referring exactly to modern colourised coins

and not naturally toned older coins or ancients)

 

colourised coins same as the one recommended can make

people money by flipping them. flipping is not an investment, it's

trading. it's still difficult to gauge what the return will be on longer

term investments of these coins and that makes it unsuitable for

investment, especially to people new to coins. saving may be

boring compared to gambling.

 

HH

I am not sure that I would agree that the colourized coins are inferior coins especially from the Perth Mint.

I would imagine most purists hate such coins but the colourized coins appeal to the potentially vast Asian markets.

These coins are maybe not to Western tastes but I think they are a good long term buy.

Also these coins have a role to play in getting children interested in numismatics.

 

[HawkHybrid]

the colourised parts have little to no relief, it's mostly

a 2d picture printed on the coins surface. when you

turn the coin slowly to look at the skillful detail you are

met with an image similar to tilting a photo. there's

no ripple of the light across the surface.

 

I'm not sure why colourised coins would appeal more

to asian markets?

 

HH

[FriedrichVonHayek]

9 hours ago, HawkHybrid said:

the colourised parts have little to no relief, it's mostly

a 2d picture printed on the coins surface. when you

turn the coin slowly to look at the skillful detail you are

met with an image similar to tilting a photo. there's

no ripple of the light across the surface.

 

I'm not sure why colourised coins would appeal more

to asian markets?

 

HH

I understand that you don't like them but many people do, and the Perth Mint will continue to produce them for their lucrative Chinese market which I believe is the second largest market after Germany.

The Pert Mint produces many colourized coins exclusively for the Chinese market that often end up on the secondary market in the U.S and Germany.

[HawkHybrid]

I was just giving an example of why I think they are inferior

(maybe by design). I don't like them, mostly because they

are of inferior quality, but that is something separate. if a

perth mint coin is milk spotted then say it is so. it doesn't

change whether you like the design or not. if high relief

coins of the same design are of better quality and hence

demand a higher price. then coins that naturally show less

detail can be concluded to be suited to a lower price.

flavour of the month coins can make good flips. I'm against

recommending such a coin for longer term investment if I

have reason to question it's quality.

I'd be more comfortable recommending something like the

2oz privateer ship coins. 

 

HH

[FriedrichVonHayek]

43 minutes ago, HawkHybrid said:

I was just giving an example of why I think they are inferior

(maybe by design). I don't like them, mostly because they

are of inferior quality, but that is something separate. if a

perth mint coin is milk spotted then say it is so. it doesn't

change whether you like the design or not. if high relief

coins of the same design are of better quality and hence

demand a higher price. then coins that naturally show less

detail can be concluded to be suited to a lower price.

flavour of the month coins can make good flips. I'm against

recommending such a coin for longer term investment if I

have reason to question it's quality.

I'd be more comfortable recommending something like the

2oz privateer ship coins. 

 

HH

I would not consider a Silver round/medallion to be a better long term investment than a government minted coin.

There has been a considerable increase in the production of colourized coins in the last few years from various mints around the world, I can only conclude that they are very popular otherwise the Perth Mint and others would not produce them.

You can currently buy the 1oz Monkey King for around £17 from GOLDSILVER.BE which sell on eBay for about £26 in the UK.

That doesn't look a bad investment to me.                             T

 

[HawkHybrid]

54 minutes ago, FriedrichVonHayek said:

I would not consider a Silver round/medallion to be a better long term investment than a government minted coin.

 

who's not thinking outside of the box now?

(it's a round so it must be milk spotted, it's an rcm official

minted coin which must be milk spot free?)

you have yet to state your reasons for dismissing a

round that has good detail and a decent theme with

boldness that could possibly appeal to people of

different ages.

would you recommend rm 20 for 20 coins when they

were selling on ebay for £24+? (makes a decent flip

but with hindsight not such a great investment)

are you suggesting a coin that could be good to flip

for someone who is looking for a savings investment?

 

HH

[FriedrichVonHayek]

All I can go on is Rounds/Medallions produced in the 1970s from John Pinches/The Birmingham Mint etc which trade at around spot at auction and have no real premium.

Maybe the Privateer Rounds will be different,I don't know.

In fact the 2oz Privateer Rounds look to be a good flip,though long term I am not so sure.

As for the Royal Mint coins,nobody knows what they will do in the future as they are a very recent issue but they are holding up quite well on eBay.

[sovereignsteve]

8 hours ago, FriedrichVonHayek said:

All I can go on is Rounds/Medallions produced in the 1970s from John Pinches/The Birmingham Mint etc which trade at around spot at auction and have no real premium.

 

It comes down to theme and design of medallion/medal/round. The ones you mention never did gain popularity and are considered in the same vein as commemoratives. Can be a nice way to buy bullion though.

[FriedrichVonHayek]

7 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

It comes down to theme and design of medallion/medal/round. The ones you mention never did gain popularity and are considered in the same vein as commemoratives. Can be a nice way to buy bullion though.

I wouldn't say the John Pinches Medallions weren't popular in 1970s as they sold tons of the stuff.

I have bought John Pinches Medallions that had the original receipts from the 70s and it took 40 years to break even in nominal terms.

The Privateer rounds in my opinion are just a fad like all the Zombucks rounds and will probably trade around spot in the next 5 years.

The Privateer rounds are very popular at the moment and there will be a huge temptation to keep bringing out more and more different designs which will have a negative effect on prices long term.

Privateer rounds are similar to John Pinches medallions in that they are classed as Exonumia which is nowhere near as popular as collecting Numismatics.

You are best sticking to Government backed bullion coins regardless whether they are colourized or not.

[HighlandTiger]

Imagine a coin with the following attributes

1. Perth Mint, one of the worlds most collectible mints

2. Proof finish, the highest quality coin that can be made

3. Lunar series, one of the most collectible and repeated series of coins

4. 2oz size

5. Very Low mintage of 1000, 

With all the tick boxes going for it, you'd think these coins would be a major winner. A Semi-Numi paradise, sure thing, cant lose, type of winner.

But guess what, we a have a someone on this very site that has been trying to shift an up to date set of these for months with no serious  interest from anyone, even though they have offered the set at what I would consider a decent price. It will get to a stage where this will be the norm for all semi numi coins.

The more and more I look into the stacking scenario, the more I am convinced in the UK that stacking coins with any premium over 5% is a seriously big mistake if you are stacking for investment purposes over the long term, (if you are a collector, then it's different, because although you'll still lose money, you won't mind so much)

In the USA, where stacking has become a popular movement, you can buy silver rounds and bars for as little as 5-6% over spot. Here in the UK, you'll be doing well to get them at 25% over spot, (and thats before you get hit with the VAT) 

The only reason I will now buy coins is to flip them, and then invest the money in buying sterling silver at less than spot, (something I can do very very very easily, although it does take a bit of effort and time). 

Eventually I will get rid of all my coins, and the only physical silver I will have will be sterling flatware, which I can get rid of for 98% of spot within 24 hours if I need to. Or about 20%-100% over spot if I take some effort, (research, cleaning, presentation etc) through Ebay.  

The other option is putting money into allocated silver. (Bullion Vault etc) Which I currently do. Now I know that people will say, "Ah but you have to pay storage costs", which is true, but it is about £5 a month. But I think of it this way. If you put just £100 into allocated silver per month, then you are paying the equivalent of only 5% on top of the silver you buy. Ok you have to take into consideration the 0.5% commission fee, but then you can often buy at less than spot there as well. The more you put in, the lower the "premium" so to speak. But the major bonus here is that with allocated silver you can sell at the peaks, 

Lets look at the silver high, on the 25/02/11 it was £23.29, on the 27/03/11 it was £28.18, and on the 16/04/11 it was £23.27. So for a very short window of a few weeks it was £5 higher or over 20%. With allocated silver you can hit that short time window, which could be as little as a day, but you have zero chance of hitting that window selling your coins for an extra 20%.  

I may be on my own here, but coins and bars are not for me. Too little upside to them, and too much downside.  

[FriedrichVonHayek]

19 minutes ago, HighlandTiger said:

Imagine a coin with the following attributes

1. Perth Mint, one of the worlds most collectible mints

2. Proof finish, the highest quality coin that can be made

3. Lunar series, one of the most collectible and repeated series of coins

4. 2oz size

5. Very Low mintage of 1000, 

With all the tick boxes going for it, you'd think these coins would be a major winner. A Semi-Numi paradise, sure thing, cant lose, type of winner.

But guess what, we a have a someone on this very site that has been trying to shift an up to date set of these for months with no serious  interest from anyone, even though they have offered the set at what I would consider a decent price. It will get to a stage where this will be the norm for all semi numi coins.

The more and more I look into the stacking scenario, the more I am convinced in the UK that stacking coins with any premium over 5% is a seriously big mistake if you are stacking for investment purposes over the long term, (if you are a collector, then it's different, because although you'll still lose money, you won't mind so much)

In the USA, where stacking has become a popular movement, you can buy silver rounds and bars for as little as 5-6% over spot. Here in the UK, you'll be doing well to get them at 25% over spot, (and thats before you get hit with the VAT) 

The only reason I will now buy coins is to flip them, and then invest the money in buying sterling silver at less than spot, (something I can do very very very easily, although it does take a bit of effort and time). 

Eventually I will get rid of all my coins, and the only physical silver I will have will be sterling flatware, which I can get rid of for 98% of spot within 24 hours if I need to. Or about 20%-100% over spot if I take some effort, (research, cleaning, presentation etc) through Ebay.  

The other option is putting money into allocated silver. (Bullion Vault etc) Which I currently do. Now I know that people will say, "Ah but you have to pay storage costs", which is true, but it is about £5 a month. But I think of it this way. If you put just £100 into allocated silver per month, then you are paying the equivalent of only 5% on top of the silver you buy. Ok you have to take into consideration the 0.5% commission fee, but then you can often buy at less than spot there as well. The more you put in, the lower the "premium" so to speak. But the major bonus here is that with allocated silver you can sell at the peaks, 

Lets look at the silver high, on the 25/02/11 it was £23.29, on the 27/03/11 it was £28.18, and on the 16/04/11 it was £23.27. So for a very short window of a few weeks it was £5 higher or over 20%. With allocated silver you can hit that short time window, which could be as little as a day, but you have zero chance of hitting that window selling your coins for an extra 20%.  

I may be on my own here, but coins and bars are not for me. Too little upside to them, and too much downside.  

Sounds like a well thought out strategy.

I was going to try to get back into buying flatware myself but it has all but dried up at the auctions in my locality.

You are right about stacking cheap Silver coins and bars in the UK as it is waste of time because of the VAT.

If you can pick out the right Semi Numi's they can do quite well over time.

Some of the coins I would avoid like the plague are Maples,Philharmonikers,Noah's Arks and possibly American Eagles.

 

[HelpingHands]

The set you mentioned is a large outlay.  1oz gold coins also struggle on here just because they cost a lot of money.

Break the set up and it has a far better chance.

[HighlandTiger]

The set you mentioned is a large outlay.  1oz gold coins also struggle on here just because they cost a lot of money.

Break the set up and it has a far better chance.

I did have some singles of this set and I struggled to get my money back. let alone make any profit. Would never buy anymore Perth mint stuff. Got burned a bit on this one

[Pipers]

I must have my say here, 

1 oz gold coins are bought to sell fast to dealers at 98_99% of fix.  I have bought a few 1oz gold coins from this site but I won,t pay dealer prices for them from private sellers, why would I! 

As far as silver goes the margins are to high for any investment under 15 years IMO, I also recommend vaults for some silver plus you can play the ratio game with gold if you are young enough. 

I have also noticed certain coins being popular then NOT,  where people have lost a lot of money. 

[ApisMellifera]

On ‎31‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 09:16, FriedrichVonHayek said:

Some of the coins I would avoid like the plague are Maples,Philharmonikers,Noah's Arks and possibly American Eagles.

Would you mind sharing why? Just to get a better understanding that I and/or others may could consider.
Sorry if you have already discussed this in other posts.

Thanks

[FriedrichVonHayek]

16 minutes ago, ApisMellifera said:

Would you mind sharing why? Just to get a better understanding that I and/or others may could consider.
Sorry if you have already discussed this in other posts.

Thanks

They are minted in such large numbers they have no real value over the spot price.

If you are based in the UK you will have to buy them in Europe to save VAT but even with this saving you are still paying a significant amount over spot.

When you come to sell you probably receive 97% of spot from a bullion dealer.

If you are based in the U.S or some other country where you can buy Silver a few percent over spot then it is a different matter.

You are better looking at lowish mintage Semi Numi coins or alternatively you could look at Highland Tiger's strategy.

[HighlandTiger]

Would you mind sharing why? Just to get a better understanding that I and/or others may could consider.

Sorry if you have already discussed this in other posts.

[emoji4] Thanks

They are minted in such large numbers they have no real value over the spot price.

If you are based in the UK you will have to buy them in Europe to save VAT but even with this saving you are still paying a significant amount over spot.

When you come to sell you probably receive 97% of spot from a bullion dealer.

If you are based in the U.S or some other country where you can buy Silver a few percent over spot then it is a different matter.

You are better looking at lowish mintage Semi Numi coins or alternatively you could look at Highland Tiger's strategy.

Nooooooooo . My strategy is rubbish. You lot don't want to buy any sterling silver stuff. Just stick to your shiny pieces of round silver.

[Pete]

Why not open a free SIPP for your teenager and if you invest £2880 now the government will add £720 within a couple of months making a nice total of £3,600.
Repeat every year until your teenager gets a job and has to pay tax.

Another benefit is that the money isn't accessible until reaching the age of 55 so will not be frittered away.

Either keep it in cash or better still move into a mainstream UK equities fund like Woodford's, Artemis, Investco Perpetual etc. and have dividends re-invested averaging 5% annual compound growth.

Having both myself, I can assure you that the PM route has been a total disaster as an investment whereas the funds have done great.

[vand]

Would you mind sharing why? Just to get a better understanding that I and/or others may could consider.

Sorry if you have already discussed this in other posts.

[emoji4] Thanks

They are minted in such large numbers they have no real value over the spot price.

If you are based in the UK you will have to buy them in Europe to save VAT but even with this saving you are still paying a significant amount over spot.

When you come to sell you probably receive 97% of spot from a bullion dealer.

If you are based in the U.S or some other country where you can buy Silver a few percent over spot then it is a different matter.

You are better looking at lowish mintage Semi Numi coins or alternatively you could look at Highland Tiger's strategy.

but THAT is precisely why people buy them - for liquidity. There is a very valid point that if silver shoots multiples higher next week then your panda premiums are irrelevant and all you want is to offload the ounces you are carrying. It makes it for a simple, non-emotional investment.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grace2much]

37 minutes ago, Pete said:

Why not open a free SIPP for your teenager and if you invest £2880 now the government will add £720 within a couple of months making a nice total of £3,600.
Repeat every year until your teenager gets a job and has to pay tax.

Another benefit is that the money isn't accessible until reaching the age of 55 so will not be frittered away.

Either keep it in cash or better still move into a mainstream UK equities fund like Woodford's, Artemis, Investco Perpetual etc. and have dividends re-invested averaging 5% annual compound growth.

Having both myself, I can assure you that the PM route has been a total disaster as an investment whereas the funds have done great.

Thanks for this Pete, we will have a chin-wag over this and see what he thinks.  I'm more of an Investment Trust guy, Monks, Scottish Mortgage, Murray International etc but plenty of room to consider carefully other ideas. Good to gather the facts and have a chew

 

[wonderhandz]

I started buying anything i could buy cheap enough.. i am now more discerning. as a kinda collector now i but the stuff that looks nice for me.. I LOVE the Queens Beasts. I also like cats and wolves so have bought some of those as 1 oz. my feel is a lump of silver is not inspiring, where shiny beautiful coins are a lot more interesting. the beasts are collectible and form a series. there are US coins at 5oz of some areas in the States. If i was to start now, with 3-4k, i would buy a stack of Beasts for beauty and cost.. then some Britannias for bullion, and CGT protection etc, and then some cheaper coins for pure bullion. I like some of the 1,5oz multi leaf Maples and their cost over spot i think is good (correct me if i am wrong!) and then a couple of the bigger coins like the Kookaburra .. i just read Scuzzle's thoughts and mine seem broadly similar.. i am relieved!! 

 

oh and i like your IT ideas too..

[BaldyBob]

Well, here we are on page 4, and I can't believe that there have been no advocates for blowing it on booze and lap dancers.

Tastefully done of course!

 

 

[Paul]

16 hours ago, BaldyBob said:

Well, here we are on page 4, and I can't believe that there have been no advocates for blowing it on booze and lap dancers.

Tastefully done of course!

You learn far more, much quicker and is far more valuable by actually doing something wrong in life and learning from it.

Ask any three time divorcee what they have learned about marriage, women, the court system, CSA, government etc.

Also look at the any billionaire and looks at the business they have done that have failed in the past.

This £3000-£4000 could be used as collateral to try and build a business from it, enhance a service, doing something faster, a deposit for a property, a few 40ft shipping containers for storage on lease.

£3000-£4000 just stuck into a barbarous relic like gold isn't going to realise you anything meaninful/productive or profit until such time you tuurn it in and you actually sell it

[DRooster]

On 28 May 2016 at 15:46, Roy said:

With the greatest respect..

We've had this discussion on here before. Why do people have to 'gift' their kids, most of us here started with nothing and worked hard. We weren't *helped.

My parents both worked and helped me financially in a small way, and bought me my second/third/fourth cars : cheap bangers (vauxhall chevettes, mostly)

I too will help my child with both time/skills and money : while he goes to a local normal school and if he's clever enough he can have the choice to go to college.

I would bet most of us here did NOT start with nothing : that would entail some dismal ****wit heritage.