Grading

[silverfrommars]

Hello there.

Could someone advice me on how I get my coins graded via the silver forum, to whom do I send them to and the payment method?

Andrew.

[airmac]

That would b @Numistacker whose post about grading submission is open in the general precious metals

[Pipers]

Well, it would be polite to ask if he would be so kind as to send the coins in for grading for you. 

[Sal]

2 hours ago, silverfrommars said:

Hello there.

Could someone advice me on how I get my coins graded via the silver forum, to whom do I send them to and the payment method?

Andrew.

I prefer PCGS but for some reason it seems the majority on this website go with NGC. IMO NGC grades coins more liberally than PCGS.

[airmac]

PCGS has an office in Paris for sending for grading from Europe if that's what you prefer

[Guest]

You pays your money and takes your choice but there is nothing between them. PCGS is exactly the same grading standard as NGC and remember grading is subjective and errors are made fairly often.

I have crossed quite a few coins now from PCGS to NGC and only 50% were considered good enough for an NGC holder in the same grade.

Some people like PCGS photography including me but PCGS is more expensive.

Anyway happy to help. Next big grading submission is in the new year.

[SilverTanner]

2 hours ago, Numistacker said:

You pays your money and takes your choice but there is nothing between them. PCGS is exactly the same grading standard as NGC and remember grading is subjective and errors are made fairly often.

I have crossed quite a few coins now from PCGS to NGC and only 50% were considered good enough for an NGC holder in the same grade.

Some people like PCGS photography including me but PCGS is more expensive.

Anyway happy to help. Next big grading submission is in the new year.

I would agree with this, in that it depends, it is all subjective and is due to different opinions on any one day but overall they are pretty consistent although a margin of a grade either way is to be expected. As a result I only upgrade coins by at least two grades and preferably three where the differences are very obvious irrespective of the fact that it is in a slab.

For example lots of PCGS MS66 sixpences only get a MS65 or even MS64 at NGC and this seems to be the case for many world coins, it would be interesting to see how sovereigns cross-over.

PCGS seem to be much better at putting varieties on the label - NGC are terrible at this.

I use NGC as they seem to do more of the world coins that I am interested in, fortunately the kind efforts of Numistacker have made this possible.

I have my eye on a coin in a January auction which is in a NGC holder and I think it is significantly overgraded so it will be interesting to see if the price achieved relates to the number on the holder or the coin itself, another recent example was a coin I need to fill a slot and it was in MS62 which is very good for this type of coin but most of the legend and denomination was so weakly struck it was unreadable, and although strictly the correct grade based on the rest of the coin it was not a good example of the type at all.

For me the holder conveys other advantages, buy the coin.

[Sal]

7 hours ago, Numistacker said:

You pays your money and takes your choice but there is nothing between them. PCGS is exactly the same grading standard as NGC and remember grading is subjective and errors are made fairly often.

I have crossed quite a few coins now from PCGS to NGC and only 50% were considered good enough for an NGC holder in the same grade.

Some people like PCGS photography including me but PCGS is more expensive.

Anyway happy to help. Next big grading submission is in the new year.

"Errors are made quite often" is enough of a reason for me not to waste money buying graded coins considering a 70 very easily could be a 69 but the reverse is highly unlikely.

[Guest]

"Errors are made quite often" is enough of a reason for me not to waste money buying graded coins considering a 70 very easily could be a 69 but the reverse is highly unlikely.

Unfortunately “errors” made by sellers are made even more often so always judge the coin not the holder.

[sovereignsteve]

1 hour ago, Sal said:

"Errors are made quite often" is enough of a reason for me not to waste money buying graded coins considering a 70 very easily could be a 69 but the reverse is highly unlikely.

Not necessarily, I have seen numerous of these "errors" or "differences of opinion" and they cut both ways.

[Sal]

16 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

Not necessarily, I have seen numerous of these "errors" or "differences of opinion" and they cut both ways.

The fact that you can send a coin back to potentially receive? a higher grade is a joke. That practice undermines the whole credibility of the grading service process. It wouldn't matter so much I guess if there wasn't such a price discrepancy between two grades but it is what it is. With today's technology their is no reason why a set of standards cannot b put into place and keep the human element (corruption) out of the mix. Please don't be so naivety say  that  corruption doesn't exist in the grading process. You can call it subjective I have other words for it. BUY THE COIN AND NOT THE GRADES FOLKS. Reminds me of a company that  was selling a expensive coin on eBay today. He puts up a stock photo and people flock in like sheep  to bid on a sight unseen coin. Are you kidding me? Then when I asked him why he didn't post a photo (or even send one to me privately) he used the excuse it was too inconvenient. Really? People buying  a slabbed coin sight unseen. Crazy STUPID.

[Sal]

1 hour ago, Numistacker said:

Is there on seller of slabbed coins on this forum that would guarantee a buyer that the coin they bought could be broken out of the slab and sent back another  grading company just to assure the coin graded the same or higher than the grade it currently had?  How many sellers on this forum of any of the bu gold Rwanda series would give that guarantee? None, like I expected. 

Unfortunately “errors” made by sellers are made even more often so always judge the coin not the holder.

 

 

[Sal]

5 minutes ago, Sal said:

 

I don't believe any seller of a slabbed coin would disclose to a potential buyer if the coin they are buying had been resubmitted by the seller and the coin received a higher grade then it originally got. They should be a grading trail so to speak so a buyer knows that for example the 70 they are buying was previously a 69 due to a "mistake" in grading. What a load of bullshit that is. Take human error or corruption out of the grading process then I might take it a bit more seriously.

[kimchi]

Although I have always had some conflicting thoughts regarding grading (and am now even more so in that boat as I will have my own first grading back soonish, which I'm actually very excited for!), I think @Sal raises some very interesting points.

I don't see in this day and age if they are honest and open why mints cannot/do not laser scan one absolutely perfect example for the large grading companies on each coin. Well, actually, being cynical (realistic?) though, this could be because little to no other examples would ever grade at the top tier - which is lose-lose for both. But there is honestly no excuse imo for mints and grading companies to not work together (paid for by the big graders) to have a first screening via a scan, with a couple of experts then reviewing anything that is flagged that prevents a higher grade.

Then there is the Strike On The Day Sovereign farce where @Numistacker told NGC three times (iirc) that it was a BUNC DPL (and to check with RM!) but they ignored him, and PGCS and NGC both continued to grade them for a while as PF CAMEOs, despite what the RM itself said from the off. OK, the error certificates complicated things but surely these companies should have some awareness of/lines of communication with the mints? I now have a PGCS PF-69 ULTRA CAMEO (backed up by the Proof error cert) but there will be confusion over these for years now!

I am also a bit suspicious of the link between NGC and NCS. Like MCM which is just up the street from NGC (I believe), if NGC know (perhaps especially have recommended) that a coin should be conserved by NCS (and these people must know each other pretty well indeed, if not go out and eat and drink together of an evening, quite possibly also in relationships with each other!) it's in their interest to grade a coin slightly higher (particularly if right on the margin, where they would usually hesitate perhaps and 'stay safe' one grade lower).

I may have missed something because I understand there is the '+' designation at PCGS at least (?). I may be doing a discredit to the integrity of the companies involved (in which case I would apologise). It's just the strong suspicion is there, for me.

That said I am very excited for my first grading! I'm hoping for some good results of course! If NGC recommend conservation of these modern coins though I would be miffed but have to accept it, and therein lays the quandary as an individual (and that's without getting into the suspicion of prefential treatment to their biggest customers like MCM).

Tldr; I don't think much human involvement is needed now beyond reviewing computer analysis on modern coins (obviously on older ones there are many more factors to balance, which would require a unique algorythm for each - not practical) and then doing the minimum to improve it (air-spraying flecks of dust off etc) - which doesn't necessarily mean NCS have to be involved (or shouldn't imvho).

 

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Sal said:

 

When I referred to errors made by sellers I was referring to sellers of non-slabbed coins who buy at one grade and sell at another at a higher price or give misleading descriptions. How many times have I seen EF++ on ebay only to see a VF-- coin in the pictures?

[fehk2001]

5 minutes ago, Numistacker said:

When I referred to errors made by sellers I was referring to sellers of non-slabbed coins who buy at one grade and sell at another at a higher price or give misleading descriptions. How many times have I seen EF++ on ebay only to see a VF-- coin in the pictures?

May I finish your sentence off :

when you get the actual item from eBay seller it's F 

[Sal]

10 hours ago, SilverTanner said:

I would agree with this, in that it depends, it is all subjective and is due to different opinions on any one day but overall they are pretty consistent although a margin of a grade either way is to be expected. As a result I only upgrade coins by at least two grades and preferably three where the differences are very obvious irrespective of the fact that it is in a slab.

For example lots of PCGS MS66 sixpences only get a MS65 or even MS64 at NGC and this seems to be the case for many world coins, it would be interesting to see how sovereigns cross-over.

PCGS seem to be much better at putting varieties on the label - NGC are terrible at this.

I use NGC as they seem to do more of the world coins that I am interested in, fortunately the kind efforts of Numistacker have made this possible.

I have my eye on a coin in a January auction which is in a NGC holder and I think it is significantly overgraded so it will be interesting to see if the price achieved relates to the number on the holder or the coin itself, another recent example was a coin I need to fill a slot and it was in MS62 which is very good for this type of coin but most of the legend and denomination was so weakly struck it was unreadable, and although strictly the correct grade based on the rest of the coin it was not a good example of the type at all.

For me the holder conveys other advantages, buy the coin.

"A margin of a grade either way is to be expected" is a very serious issue and is not acceptable with the $$$ involved. I don't have the stats but other people on here may. Percentage wise the average (if there is such a thing) between lets say a MS70 and MS69 or PF70 and PF69 is what? 20%-40%-60%. 

[sovereignsteve]

It's just not possible to precisely grade any coin using the grade definitions available.

OK, maybe it is but only with brand new therefore modern coins fresh from the mint. It should be possible to say if a new coin is a 70 or not.

However, once you start looking at older coins with some wear, it becomes impossible. All coins are different and will show wear and faults in different places and to varying extents.

Even if you get several graders to look at each coin, you still have to realise it's human beings giving their opinions by comparing the coins to the defined standards. It's not possible to use some kind of scanning technology etc.

Once you accept this fact, it follows that sometimes you will receive grades less than you expect, sometimes the opposite. I have had both.

The question is what do you do?

If it's better, do you just smile and rub your hands together with glee? Or do you send it to be re-graded?

Ha I think I know the answer.

Once you accept that there will be "errors" made by the TPG's, what's wrong with re-submitting hoping to get the right result next time?

 

[Sal]

So the right result would be the higher grade? I guess the higher grade would be the right result if all you cared about was the $$$ aspect of collecting coins. GEEZ

[sovereignsteve]

37 minutes ago, Sal said:

So the right result would be the higher grade? I guess the higher grade would be the right result if all you cared about was the $$$ aspect of collecting coins. GEEZ

No, my point is there is no "right" grade. The whole thing is subjective. If the grade is important to you for $$$ reasons, surely it's only right that you get the grade the coin deserves. You are paying good money for the service after all.

Once you accept they don't get it right all the time, if you are prepared to accept the extra cost, and you think they have got it wrong, send it back.

[SilverTanner]

13 hours ago, Sal said:

"A margin of a grade either way is to be expected" is a very serious issue and is not acceptable with the $$$ involved. I don't have the stats but other people on here may. Percentage wise the average (if there is such a thing) between lets say a MS70 and MS69 or PF70 and PF69 is what? 20%-40%-60%. 

The coins I tend to collect tend not to have big price differences between adjacent grades e.g. AU55/58, MS62/63 and MS65/66 with the actual look/quality of the coin dictating the price. It is perfectly possible for the same coin with a lower numerical grade to command a higher price at auction. It is only the top coin in popular series, irrespective of grade, which commands a big premium.

I have never been brave enough to take the MS/PF 69/70 gamble with new issues, I do have some MS66's though with the rest starting at F12

[Fivepoundfred]

I prefer to use PCGS because by using the Paris grading week option coins are back in your possession very quickly. PCGS take submission's on some dates of the Birmingham and London coin fairs and i always get my coins back within 3 weeks of submission.

Regarding crossover's, one of my fellow five pound collectors told me that he has submitted several NGC PF70's to PCGS for crossover and they have been downgraded to PF69, but of course you have the option to hold grade or leave the coin in it's current holder. I have only crossed two coins and they both held PF70.

One downside with PCGS is that they have a very limited optional label choice, in fact there are none for RM coins. They had a recent survey of members on how to improve things and this was one topic, so maybe it will improve.

I would always be happy to submit coins to PCGS on behalf of forum member's.

 

 

[Sal]

All of the NGC  PF70'S coins were downgraded or just a selected few? Could you tell me what two coins you submitted for crossover that held? 

[fehk2001]

1 hour ago, Sal said:

All of the NGC  PF70'S coins were downgraded or just a selected few? Could you tell me what two coins you submitted for crossover that held? 

https://www.pcgs.com/statistics/

that's the stats

[sovereignsteve]

33 minutes ago, fehk2001 said:

that's the stats

Lies, all lies