1887 Double Florin & Crown--what grade?

[JohnA]

Will I get an MS on these, judging by the eBay pics?

Do the graders consider age of coin in their decisions? Like will a 2017 Sov grade different than a 1900 Sov of equal wear?

See here for unboxing video

[Jester]

47 minutes ago, shortstack68 said:

The 1887 florin I personally wouldn't grade, they are far too common plus the fee will cost more due to its age and will probably cost the value the coin has. It also has some marks on the neck and cheek of Victoria and I guess it would be a low MS if not an AU 58.

The crown at a guess around an MS62, but asking if any coin would get an MS is like asking if you'll win the lottery next weekend, a crystal ball ? s required when it comes to grading, I just give an educated guess

Agreed.  I think the bag marks on her cheek, neck and in the obverse field of the Florin along with the nicks and dings on the obverse (the "G" in Gratia looks like it has a nick as well as in her mourning veil behind her ear) might result in an AU grade.  The reverse looks good IMO with minimal wear.  Nice coins though!  Thanks for sharing.

[JohnA]

I'll do an unboxing video when I get them and a grading video after they are graded. Probably Dec on grading.

[metallica73]

Just for comparison, here's my 1890 Crown bought from a dealer as XF (British Grading)

 

I'm not 100% sure, but if I had to make a choice - i'd say that 1887 Double Florin is showing signs of cleaning in the scan

[Clens92]

I'd say the Crown is only just EF - some rim damage and a nasty gouge on the cheek.

[boon]

Ooh i do like a nice Florin, particularly handsome coins- always been a favourite

Sorry I've nothing to add grading wise, just wanted to say nice looking coins you have there

[Xander]

3 hours ago, JohnAnsink said:

Will I get an MS on these, judging by the eBay pics?

Do the graders consider age of coin in their decisions? Like will a 2017 Sov grade different than a 1900 Sov of equal wear?

According to the book. Grading British Coins.

If the coin is EF, the Sheldon scale method would make it equal to, AU50

[Xander]

5 minutes ago, shortstack68 said:

AU58 is EF, AU50 is VF or GVF

Good EF is AU55-58.

EF is AU50.

That's according to the book, Grading British Coins.

[SilverTanner]

I would guess AU58 for the florin and AU55 for the crown - depending on the amount of lustre remaining (not possible to tell from the scans - same goes for the dreaded 'surface hairlines') so they could easily be a grade lower particularly as many of the dings are on Victoria's face which NGC may call 'distracting' and knock a grade off. It is these AU grades where the differences in opinion is greatest.

Still very nice collectable grades.

Interesting Youtube video from Coinweek on whether 'experts' give the same grades as NGC - which is why when I upgrade things it is usually by 3 grades!

 

[sovereignsteve]

37 minutes ago, Xander said:

Good EF is AU55-58.

EF is AU50.

That's according to the book, Grading British Coins.

do you mean the Derek Francis Allen book "The Standard Guide to Grading British Coins"?

I've never seen that info in the book and I would be surprised if that were the case, it is totally wrong. AU50 doesn't come close to EF

@shortstack68 is right, EF is AU58 - 60

 

EDIT; you're right, it is in the book. don't know where he got that info, I would say he's not up on his US TPG knowledge.

Having looked at and compared hundreds of graded coins, I would say the table that the UK CGS published before their demise is very accurate, as you would expect. It was on their website, don't think you can access this now unless you join LCGS.

[sovereignsteve]

23 minutes ago, SilverTanner said:

I would guess AU58 for the florin and AU55 for the crown

I think spot on that man.

[Xander]

12 minutes ago, shortstack68 said:

British grading and crossover American grades, AU50 is VF, hopefully the picture will help clear up your confusion

 

 

Not according to the book, Grading British Coins.

Perhaps you should upgrade your database.

It's easy for you to get your wires crossed if you're not up to date.

If you are having problems check out Derek Francis  Allen. Grading British Coins. That may help clear up any confusion for you.

 

[Xander]

51 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

do you mean the Derek Francis Allen book "The Standard Guide to Grading British Coins"?

I've never seen that info in the book and I would be surprised if that were the case, it is totally wrong. AU50 doesn't come close to EF

@shortstack68 is right, EF is AU58 - 60

 

EDIT; you're right, it is in the book. don't know where he got that info, I would say he's not up on his US TPG knowledge.

Having looked at and compared hundreds of graded coins, I would say the table that the UK CGS published before their demise is very accurate, as you would expect. It was on their website, don't think you can access this now unless you join LCGS.

In the book Grading British Coins by Derek Francis Allen.

EF= AU50

"Good" EF= AU55/AU58.

That's on page 9.

[Roy]

An observation.

@shortstack68 I respect your experience but you are being an ass. Again.

Please be considerate here.

[Xander]

10 minutes ago, shortstack68 said:

The table I gave you is the British standard from LCGS, the one Steve mentioned are the Sheldon grades plus the British crossover equivalent. I know Derek personally and I'm not sure what he's written but perhaps he's talking about the Sheldon scale and not the British scale, an AU 50 would never be taken as an EF coin in the UK, trust me I know what I'm talking about. Read the scale from LCGS 

Si both myself and Steve are wrong, so I'll just let you continue buying AU50 coins and let's see if you can sell it in the UK as GEF, you'll not be a happy Xander and could lose money in the process.

Here is page 9 of the book.

Extremely fine. Traditional US= about UNC...Sheldon scale Extremely fine = AU50.

Good EF. Traditional US =About UNC...Sheldon scale, Good EF = AU 55...AU58.

I am only saying whats in this book. It seems to grade is not like using a tape measure where everyone agrees, it seems to grade is definitely subjective.

[Roy]

True. Own it.

[Xander]

10 minutes ago, shortstack68 said:

Uh huh, notice where it says SHELDON scale and not the BRITISH scale

Correct, at last!..the three mean the same depending on where you are standing.

PS.

"Teaching" is an art best left to the professionals.

[sovereignsteve]

Right guys this is getting confusing and a little unfortunate

Let's start from the beginning. The traditional British grading scale has been around for ages using the terms fine, very fine, extremely fine, uncirculated etc without anyone setting out a clear standard so that everybody agrees which grade is which. it has always been subjective.

The Sheldon scale was originally devised as a means of grading and comparing small denomination US coins such as cents etc. It was never intended to be used for silver coins and certainly not gold.

When it's deficiencies were recognised, it was revised by the ANA and I believe both NGC and PCGS use this revised Sheldon scale. There aren't any major differences but it mainly addresses the MS grades and more clearly defines mint lustre and other aspects that affect the look and attractiveness of a coin. This is also an area that the British system has been weak on.

The comparison table that @shortstack68 has posted is the one I was referring to and as far as I'm concerned is the only truly accurate table I have come across. It was produced by the UK CGS after comparing many PCGS and NGC graded coins with ones they were grading themselves. As I have said, I think it is very accurate as you would expect considering the source of it's data.

Now we come to the table in the Allen book. I don't know where he has got his data but as much as I respect his book and his knowledge of UK grading, it bears no resemblance to what both NGC and PCGS are putting out these days. It does say Sheldon scale and not revised Sheldon scale but as far as I can see there aren't any major differences between the two in the basic grading sections anyway. I cannot explain it's deficiencies but I would advise anyone not to rely on it when grading their own coins and certainly don't use it as a basis for buying.

The "sweet spot" for collecting British coins is certainly EF. Anything above this is great but a collection based on EF coins will be attractive, keep it's value if not improve it and cost a substantial amount of money compared to inferior coins of VF and below. When comparing British coins of EF grade and above with US TPG graded coins, please do not rely on the table in the Allen book. If you buy AU50 - AU55 coins graded by NGC and PCGS expecting them to be EF and better, you will be sorely disappointed.

[metallica73]

3 hours ago, shortstack68 said:

Pennycrowncoin aka Derek Francis Allan, he wrote the book on grading ? Yes, I'm a geek lol

Ha, you recognise the background then. I have his grading book also, it was very useful for a noob at the time.

As for the cross grading, didn't CGS update their grading sometime near their demise? I have an EF Fourpence I bought 5 years ago which would have been an AU using the last numerical grade they posted.

 

[sovereignsteve]

33 minutes ago, metallica73 said:

Ha, you recognise the background then. I have his grading book also, it was very useful for a noob at the time.

As for the cross grading, didn't CGS update their grading sometime near their demise? I have an EF Fourpence I bought 5 years ago which would have been an AU using the last numerical grade they posted.

 

To my knowledge they didn't but then again I didn't take much notice of them other than to frequently visit their website to view the comparison table, which never changed in the time I was looking.

I don't understand your sentence re: your 4d coin. By what measure was it EF and what makes you think they would have graded it AU? Is the AU GB grade or Sheldon?

[metallica73]

36 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

To my knowledge they didn't but then again I didn't take much notice of them other than to frequently visit their website to view the comparison table, which never changed in the time I was looking.

I don't understand your sentence re: your 4d coin. By what measure was it EF and what makes you think they would have graded it AU? Is the AU GB grade or Sheldon?

I'm not a member there but I remember reading it on Predecimal forum at some point that cgs has updated their grading scales. I wasn't a big CGS collector so like you didn't follow every change.

But my 4d is graded CGS EF 70 and was bought 5 years ago I think.  Judging by that table posted here the CGS numerical grade 70 is now an AU, not EF so I think that table is the last correct comparison and the one in Derek Allens book is out of date as it was 7 years ago now.

 

Edit -

Ok it looks like the last change was in 2013. Looking at Weighton coins here if you scroll down, the numerical grading at CGS was different for coins graded between 2006-2013

http://weightoncoins.co.uk/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=228

So Derek Allens book is out of date regarding cross grading, and the table posted here is the correct one.

 

 

[sovereignsteve]

Ah yes, AU British scale, sometimes written as aUNC

60 would be their standard EF number, so 70 would be the borderline of gEF and aUNC I guess. It does get a bit confusing and subjective how you define British grades above EF.

So did the label actually say "EF 70"?

Maybe in their early days that was the way they regarded EF and actually changed it a tad after studying their grades compared to the US TPG'ers.

It will be interesting if we can get Derek Allen's explanation of his comparison table. Whether it's an example of something changing with time we shall see. I would guess it's more like he based it on some dodgy data, as I wouldn't have thought he would have studied the Sheldon system too closely.

 

[metallica73]

2 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

It will be interesting if we can get Derek Allen's explanation of his comparison table. Whether it's an example of something changing with time we shall see. I would guess it's more like he based it on some dodgy data, as I wouldn't have thought he would have studied the Sheldon system too closely.

 

See my edited post above. Dereks book was correct at the time of publishing but CGS changed their grading 3 years later.

[JohnA]

I use ANACS

[sovereignsteve]

It would be interesting to see some British coins graded by NGC/PCGS 7 or more years ago.