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Scottsdales 1oz Bu Ghana leopard mix up


swAgger

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@Rhyseyson no such thing as a stupid question when starting off in this great hobby. Yes don't worry, it's just the lighting angle.

@daz & @metallica73 fair points, and appreciate what you are saying. I see a little better where you are coming from, too. I have to say though, the prices in £STG you guys mention from time to time, is a real shocker.

One of my pet hates is the silverline range. I don't regard them as semi-numi investment pieces. Don't get me wrong, i liked a lot of the designs and the quality was there but MCI heap so much premium on top it doesn't make them viable. They add anywhere up to approx 100 -150% on top of the spot price. In effect from launch they are gobbling up for themselves the potential future gains that a good regular priced semi numi coin might expect to get in the long run. When i say regular priced, i mean in the 33 - 50 % cost above spot. That leaves plenty of scope for growth. I will sometimes for good reason go slightly above that, like the silver swan. Got them at about 75% over spot, and was glad to pay it in that case.

MCI thought to themselves 'why can't we just capitalize right now premium-wise for the semi-numi market' rather than price lower and let buyers make the gains later on. They missed the whole point though. Price too high at launch and buyers lose interest. Price your semi numi bullion right at launch, and you create the interest which feeds into the later issues in the series. Silverline products find themselves in an odd position price-wise at launch. Halfway between bullion and proof. It's not a good formula. You alienate chunks of buyers. Your bullion buyers won't bite for obvious reasons, and you can claim "proof like" all you want to justify the price but proof buyers hesitate because they are still BU, with none of the bells and whistles like presentation and coa's. And this proof-like claim that gets thrown around as if it's unique.... really, with the advances in getting quality striking now, finding proof like condition in many bullion ranges is more and more common. If some of the mints could only wash the dam things a bit better before baking in the future milk spots. (oh spotting is not such a common issue with Scottsdale bullion coins either, which is why i like them so much more!)

By the way, Scottsdale may not be as well known in Europe but they are an excellent and well regarded mint in the States. Which is a big plus. And they are expanding their offerings of new and interesting bullion in recent years. Have you seen one of their recent Cayman Islands Marlin bullion coins in hand, by the way? Bullion coin of the year in my opinion, i couldn't believe it.

okeydokey, i'm done ;) So much for my pledge not to try convince, right? I can't help my own enthusiasm for the hobby, at times!

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8 hours ago, swAgger said:

Have you seen one of their recent Cayman Islands Marlin bullion coins in hand, by the way? Bullion coin of the year in my opinion, i couldn't believe it.

 

hadnt seen one but just done a web search for it , and i agree. that is one good looking coin

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I wish I had some extra money for 125 of them. That would be fun getting a mint issued box of them! And I think likely a very good investment but unfortunately I can't say have a great track record for that. I just don't want to end up with $3000 worth of a coin that could end up being one almost no one has ever heard of. Guess I don't have to worry it about since my wife would probably kill me if I spent that much and told her they are coins from Ghana:)

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On 7/4/2017 at 16:40, Rhyseyson said:

So, as previously mentioned in another thread, I'm relatively new to this been stacking/collecting/investing whatever you want to call it for a month and half now / 2 months.

The vibe im getting from this thread is that semi numi coins are really where to put your money, as from a stacking/collectors view there nice coins with good designs but also as an investment they hold there value a lot more than say a random bit of silver

Also could be very stupid question, but just had a look at the pics in this thread and is it just the lighting on the photo or is the 5 credits coin got a different back ground. Looks like it's darker in the pattern?

In my opinion, semi-numismatics are where the greatest risk lie and where you're just as likely to lose your shirt as you are to hit pay dirt.  Trying to discern if the latest Silver coin will be a winner over time almost seems an impossibility (I say Silver because that's what's being discussed here).  Sure you try to do as much research as you can (hopefully) such as, have earlier coins in the series gone on to appreciate and be highly desired by collectors.  But even that's not a certainty (2016 Peter Rabbit vs 2017 Peter Rabbit?).  And I truly believe the major Mints have recognized this and are capitalizing on it to the detriment of our wallets.  We end up chasing the next greatest offering.  As some Forum members much wiser and seasoned than I have pointed out, there are a good number of modern collectibles that find their way into the "bargain bins" of dealers sometimes only after a few years of their heralded release for little more than spot.

While it may take more time and sometimes more capital, true numismatics are where investments for the future are made (again, just my opinion).  These are coins that have stood the test of decades or even centuries where past sales and trends can be researched and analyzed.  These coins, by their nature, are also not as susceptible to the swings we've seen in the spot prices of PMs recently.  The older Sovereigns, Morgans, Crowns, Francs, early American Gold, Spanish Colonial, etc. (the list is vast) will always be a safer bet with as little downside as one can hope for in this hobby.

This isn't to say that a calculated risk here and there on a new release shouldn't be made or maybe, you just love the design of the coin so damn the torpedoes, I'm dropping $200 on this 1 or 2 oz semi-num Silver coin but for me and mine, I wouldn't adopt that as my long-term investment strategy.  As an example, the 2 oz, yes 2 oz of Silver (so worth around $32 of spot value), Niue Ares God of War High Relief coin just released this year is selling at one reputable dealer for $899 :blink:.  With a mintage of 500 coins it could certainly be a winner in the future but the buzz that surrounds it now is just as likely to fade over time along with its exponential premium.  You know what opinions are like so I simply offer mine up as another data point as you consider formulating your strategy.  Good luck in whatever you decide.

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15 hours ago, Jester said:

In my opinion, semi-numismatics are where the greatest risk lie and where you're just as likely to lose your shirt as you are to hit pay dirt.  Trying to discern if the latest Silver coin will be a winner over time almost seems an impossibility (I say Silver because that's what's being discussed here).  Sure you try to do as much research as you can (hopefully) such as, have earlier coins in the series gone on to appreciate and be highly desired by collectors.  But even that's not a certainty (2016 Peter Rabbit vs 2017 Peter Rabbit?).  And I truly believe the major Mints have recognized this and are capitalizing on it to the detriment of our wallets.  We end up chasing the next greatest offering.  As some Forum members much wiser and seasoned than I have pointed out, there are a good number of modern collectibles that find their way into the "bargain bins" of dealers sometimes only after a few years of their heralded release for little more than spot.

While it may take more time and sometimes more capital, true numismatics are where investments for the future are made (again, just my opinion).  These are coins that have stood the test of decades or even centuries where past sales and trends can be researched and analyzed.  These coins, by their nature, are also not as susceptible to the swings we've seen in the spot prices of PMs recently.  The older Sovereigns, Morgans, Crowns, Francs, early American Gold, Spanish Colonial, etc. (the list is vast) will always be a safer bet with as little downside as one can hope for in this hobby.

This isn't to say that a calculated risk here and there on a new release shouldn't be made or maybe, you just love the design of the coin so damn the torpedoes, I'm dropping $200 on this 1 or 2 oz semi-num Silver coin but for me and mine, I wouldn't adopt that as my long-term investment strategy.  As an example, the 2 oz, yes 2 oz of Silver (so worth around $32 of spot value), Niue Ares God of War High Relief coin just released this year is selling at one reputable dealer for $899 :blink:.  With a mintage of 500 coins it could certainly be a winner in the future but the buzz that surrounds it now is just as likely to fade over time along with its exponential premium.  You know what opinions are like so I simply offer mine up as another data point as you consider formulating your strategy.  Good luck in whatever you decide.

Hi Jester - I'm in total agreement with you on the risks of the proof and collectible issues. Well put, and i couldn't agree more, in fact. Proofs and collectibles are, for the larger part, buy to personally enjoy. Not to invest.   

But you began by saying semi-numis are the greatest risk? Then changed the subject to the risks of collectible issues? Or do you mean you class the likes of the "Ares" as a semi-numi? For newcomers (and there is at least one who has been asking questions on this thread) trying to come to grips with the choices out there, if i'm confused by what you meant in your first line then he certainly would be.

Semi-numi when i talk of it, are specifically one area - the bullion BU coin which lends itself to an increased level of numismatic interest through changing annual designs and/or lower mintages. As the vast majority of these are within a low-to-modest margin over silver spot price when launched it simply isn't true to say he would lose his shirt, or conversely rolling in riches, just to be equally clear. But it is a very good, affordable way to start your journey of owning physical silver and at the same time have a finger or two in the collectors pie, which, apart from being way more fascinating than generic bullion, often (not just rarely) goes on to prove itself.

As of now, for example, the 1oz 5 cedi leopard is €19.80, with spot price being €13.64. Even this margin over spot is touching on the high end by comparison to other semi-numi. Initial margins above spot are historically even lower than that on some of the more household ones like kooks & koalas etc.

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1 hour ago, swAgger said:

Hi Jester - I'm in total agreement with you on the risks of the proof and collectible issues. Well put, and i couldn't agree more, in fact. Proofs and collectibles are, for the larger part, buy to personally enjoy. Not to invest.   

But you began by saying semi-numis are the greatest risk? Then changed the subject to the risks of collectible issues? Or do you mean you class the likes of the "Ares" as a semi-numi? For newcomers (and there is at least one who has been asking questions on this thread) trying to come to grips with the choices out there, if i'm confused by what you meant in your first line then he certainly would be.

Semi-numi when i talk of it, are specifically one area - the bullion BU coin which lends itself to an increased level of numismatic interest through changing annual designs and/or lower mintages. As the vast majority of these are within a low-to-modest margin over silver spot price when launched it simply isn't true to say he would lose his shirt, or conversely rolling in riches, just to be equally clear. But it is a very good, affordable way to start your journey of owning physical silver and at the same time have a finger or two in the collectors pie, which, apart from being way more fascinating than generic bullion, often (not just rarely) goes on to prove itself.

As of now, for example, the 1oz 5 cedi leopard is €19.80, with spot price being €13.64. Even this margin over spot is touching on the high end by comparison to other semi-numi. Initial margins above spot are historically even lower than that on some of the more household ones like kooks & koalas etc.

Good point swAgger.  When I'm thinking of a semi-num, I'm thinking of coins like Ares, Peter Rabbit, the Tuvalu Dragon, the Palau Tiffany Coins, etc...not a true numismatic but not your typical Maple Leaf, ASE, or Brit bullion either.  To your point, you certainly wont lose your shirt and you can't really go wrong with a Panda, Koala, Kook collection but IMO, the type coins like the ones I mentioned above leave a lot more to chance.  Thanks for asking the clarifying question.

I did fork out the cabbage for the Tuvalu Dragon and while also a more risky purchase, as you said, some coins you buy just because you like them...

(I kinda have a thing for dragons)

dragontat.jpg.7232bae37c097bcf3893b0cbd8234ae7.jpg

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16 minutes ago, Jester said:

(I kinda have a thing for dragons)

Just don't go near naked men on horses, especially this year, there are a lot of them about.

I guess you'll be a GoT fan then?

Profile picture with thanks to Carl Vernon

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Little Jackie Paper loved that rascal Puff :)

Technically, alcohol is a solution..

'It [socialism] poses a growing threat, however unintentional, to the freedom of this country, for there is no freedom where the State totally controls the economy. Personal freedom and economic freedom are indivisible. You can’t have one without the other. You can’t lose one without losing the other.'

"There is no such thing as public money, there is only taxpayers' money"

Let not England forget her precedence of teaching nations how to live.

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2 hours ago, Jester said:

Good point swAgger.  When I'm thinking of a semi-num, I'm thinking of coins like Ares, Peter Rabbit, the Tuvalu Dragon, the Palau Tiffany Coins, etc...not a true numismatic but not your typical Maple Leaf, ASE, or Brit bullion either.  To your point, you certainly wont lose your shirt and you can't really go wrong with a Panda, Koala, Kook collection but IMO, the type coins like the ones I mentioned above leave a lot more to chance.  Thanks for asking the clarifying question.

I did fork out the cabbage for the Tuvalu Dragon and while also a more risky purchase, as you said, some coins you buy just because you like them...

(I kinda have a thing for dragons)

No problem, it was worth us both clarifying what we meant by semi-numi.

The Perth 2oz antiqued dragon is a tasty looking one alright. I recently went for the "Gargoyles & Grotesques". Couldn't decide between antique or proof so got one of each. Not often a proof is limited to 200 mintage. I liked that.

I was very tempted in my last post to get stuck in on the Ares one you mentioned, by the way, and the dealer driven hype. But it's better not to go there..... in fact just deleted a whole paragraph here :)

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5 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

Just don't go near naked men on horses, especially this year, there are a lot of them about.

I guess you'll be a GoT fan then?

LOL, don't act like you know me Steve...I wouldn't do something like only add HBO to my cable package for several months a year to watch a particular HBO Original :unsure:

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9 hours ago, Jester said:

.I wouldn't do something like only add HBO to my cable package for several months a year to watch a particular HBO Original :unsure:

Over my head Jest I'm afraid. Don't know how and where it's shown over there, just that the new series is getting a lot of plugging over here with clips of flying dragons and people getting really exited:D

Profile picture with thanks to Carl Vernon

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41 minutes ago, Moi said:

The redeeming feature is the face value, if can be got. Around 20 dollars or so, softens the blow if the market is flat. Built in get out of jail free card. 

Despite my doubts, I have picked a few of these up - they aren't super high premiums.

But the face value thing really doesn't hold up. £20 uk silver coins are selling for less than face right now because the legal tender term is really vague.

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True, though as not royal mint flim flam might be more straightforward. Prolly the first time a bullion coin has a decent face value, new ground. All in the lap of the gods anyway.  

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Just now, sjjma said:

APMEX is sold out now...

Was just going to post that. Must've shifted in the last few hours.  139 available at gs.be but cant see any other dealer with them. A couple of Ebay sellers in the US & Germany. The German guy still thinks they are 50k mintage.

Will be interesting to observe when the 5 Cedi coin comes out. Longer term depends on whether this series is popular or not and quality of coin in hand.

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There are some in stock again at SD billion for less than $21. Says won't ship until after July 21. Only concern there is that they might not know the mix up yet and are planning on shipping the 5 cedi coin maybe? otherwise that's a great deal!

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