Freedom of information request - Royal mint

[onlyroadtoheaven]

I have put the FOI in.

I have also asked if they have minted any Lions this year ie can they still produce coins after the year of issue like Perth mint do with their Kilo Lunars?

[999magnum]

Thanks pampfan. Very interesting to see how the numbers are down on the 2oz, but i'm very very surprised at the mintage numbers for the lion. I don't know much, but those mintage numbers seem very high.

[Pampfan]

20 hours ago, 999magnum said:

Thanks pampfan. Very interesting to see how the numbers are down on the 2oz, but i'm very very surprised at the mintage numbers for the lion. I don't know much, but those mintage numbers seem very high.

Haven’t looked at this thread in a while but if you look at the bullion pricing for the 2 oz lion - spot plus a huge premium over the other releases in the 2 oz coins - even though the mintage of the lion is so much higher than all the rest - it’s hard to believe.

i had multiple rolls of the lion - but the spotting issue - killed it for me - and I sold them all off last year.

 

[onlyroadtoheaven]

On ‎27‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 22:38, onlyroadtoheaven said:

I have put the FOI in.

I have also asked if they have minted any Lions this year ie can they still produce coins after the year of issue like Perth mint do with their Kilo Lunars?

I have just received the email below. Very exciting that its an FOI "team" which suggests that its not just 1 person. It makes me think that I should think up some quirky requests to keep them busy during the quieter periods!

 

Dear ********

Please accept our apologies for the delay in responding to your request for information. We are still in the process of collating the requested information and will follow up with you shortly.

With kind regards

FOI Team

[sovereignsteve]

On 26/03/2018 at 17:04, onlyroadtoheaven said:

Very exciting that its an FOI "team" which suggests that its not just 1 person

they'll be constantly re-deployed to the returns department, that'll be why they're taking so long answering you.

[onlyroadtoheaven]

And here it is ....... 

Dear ***********

I refer to your Freedom of Information request dated 27 February.

For information and perhaps clarity the term “mintage” for a particular coin, as applied by The Royal Mint, means sales of that particular coin less returns. It is critical, we think, from both a collector and valuation perspective and also to preserve the integrity of any secondary market, that there is transparency as to the number of coins, of a particular type, in the market, that could potentially be bought or sold. This definition of mintage supports these objectives.

The reason I provide this explanation is that whilst mintage figures for the coins you mention are intended for future publication, indeed we publish mintage figures as a matter of course on our website, they do not generally get published for 2 years after the end of the year of the coin in question. This is partly to allow for any returns to take place to ensure the authenticity and reliability of the mintage figures when published.

So whilst we are unable to provide you with mintage figures for the coins in question, given these are 2017 and 2018 year coins, I confirm that details will be available on The Royal Mint website in due course and in line with our policy as stated above.

As for the second part of your request our response is as follows:

For Commemorative coins:

We may on occasion mint coins after the applicable release year but only up to confirmed maximum issuance limits.

For Bullion coins:

A cease of production is usually announced approximately 12 months after the launch date of a new bullion coin product. This is approximate as it is dependent on varying factors, including production and manufacturing schedules and capabilities, but typically is within a few weeks of the 12 month window. The 10oz Silver Queens Beast Dragon for example, which launched on 19th March 2018, will cease towards the end of March/beginning of April 2019. The date of course will remain the same on the coin for the duration.

I hope you will find this information of interest.

By way of formality, if you are dissatisfied with the handling of your request, you have the right to ask for an internal review. Internal review requests should be submitted within two months of the date of receipt of the response to your original letter and should be addressed to:

Mr Martin McDade
Finance Director
Royal Mint
Llantrisant
Pontyclun
CF72 8YT

If you are not content with the outcome of the internal review, you have the right to apply directly to the Information Commissioner for a decision. Please be aware that the Commissioner will be unlikely to make a decision until you have been through our internal complaints procedure first. The Information Commissioner can be contacted at: Information Commissioner's Office, Wycliffe House, Water Lane, Wilmslow, Cheshire, SK9 5AF.
Kind regards

Yours sincerely

FOI Team

[NRSovereign]

On 03/06/2017 at 08:44, Numistacker said:

Great information. Probably worth sending them the same request each quarter )

Somewhere in the run of 10 there will be some low mintage gems as people start to tire.

Exactly what I was thinking!

[NewMSmatist15]

On 3/26/2018 at 12:04, onlyroadtoheaven said:

I have just received the email below. Very exciting that its an FOI "team" which suggests that its not just 1 person. It makes me think that I should think up some quirky requests to keep them busy during the quieter periods!

 

Dear ********

Please accept our apologies for the delay in responding to your request for information. We are still in the process of collating the requested information and will follow up with you shortly.

With kind regards

FOI Team

Are you a UK citizen/resident? Would the RM accept a FOI request from a US citizen you think? I ask since I've been collecting a very specific range from an engraver that worked on foreign coins with the RM. For instance, the RM produces coins for Costa Rica, Tanzania, Lesotho, etc. I have emailed them in the general contact enquiry a handful of times and received no response. What email do you sent it to? Did you mail this in with a paper letter?

[Oldun]

On 02/06/2017 at 02:42, Pampfan said:

Here are the mintages and sales figures through April 2017 -  Project I believe was a success.

Standard	Alloy	Theme	Fine Oz / Size	Mintage Limit	Despatched Sales to End April
Bullion	GOLD	Dragon	0.25	No Limit	7,635
Bullion	GOLD	Dragon	1	No Limit	6,519
Bullion	GOLD	Griffin	0.25	No Limit	10,345
Bullion	GOLD	Griffin	1	No Limit	11,367
Bullion	GOLD	Lion	0.25	No Limit	20,000
Bullion	GOLD	Lion	1	No Limit	22,248
Bullion	SILVER	Dragon	2	No Limit	154,815
Bullion	SILVER	Griffin	2	No Limit	180,992
Bullion	SILVER	Lion	2	No Limit	253,150
Bullion	SILVER	Lion	10	No Limit	5,000

Standard	Alloy	Theme	Fine Oz / Size	Mintage Limit	Despatched Sales to End April
Proof	GOLD	Lion	0.25	2,500	1,940
Proof	GOLD	Lion	1	1,000	589
Proof	GOLD	Lion	5	125	125
Proof	GOLD	Lion	Kilo	10	10
Proof	SILVER	Lion	1	8,500	7,684
Proof	SILVER	Lion	5	2,500	1,431
Proof	SILVER	Lion	10	1,250	1,122
Proof	SILVER	Lion	Kilo	600	295

 

It has been a year now. Is another foi request going in to get “Despatched Sales to End April” 2018 ? @Pampfan Magnificent effort last year 

[Pampfan]

1 hour ago, Oldun said:

It has been a year now. Is another foi request going in to get “Despatched Sales to End April” 2018 ? @Pampfan Magnificent effort last year 

Can’t believe a year has passed. I’ll see if I can find the old type writer and give it another go this weekend.  I’ll let everyone know.

 

[Oldun]

Legend

[Pampfan]

I have just reached out to my contact at the royal mint requesting the same information as above but through March 2018.  As soon as I hear back from them, I will update all.

 

[Pampfan]

My request has been received and is in process. 

In a few weeks I will hopefully have some good news and some information for all.

[Pampfan]

Should be getting an email from the mint any day now.

I am very curious as to if any of the early releases have very different sales numbers from last year - remember there were no mintage limits on any of the bullion items - so is it possible that the mint may re-issue - or possible come out with a complete set of the beasts at the end of the run??? 

[Pampfan]

My contact at the royal mint has stated that they are almost complete sorting out all the information and I should be hearing back from them by weeks end.

 

[Pampfan]

Here are the bullion only figures - As soon as I receive the proof figures I will update.

Standard	Alloy	Theme	Fine Oz / Size	Mintage Limit	Despatched Sales to End March
Bullion	GOLD	Dragon	0.25	No Limit	10,421
Bullion	GOLD	Dragon	1	No Limit	14,456
Bullion	GOLD	Griffin	0.25	No Limit	10,758
Bullion	GOLD	Griffin	1	No Limit	13,159
Bullion	GOLD	Lion	0.25	No Limit	20,094
Bullion	GOLD	Lion	1	No Limit	22,707
Bullion	GOLD	Unicorn	0.25	No Limit	10,193
Bullion	GOLD	Unicorn	1	No Limit	12,268
Bullion	GOLD	Bull	0.25	No Limit	5,066
Bullion	GOLD	Bull	1	No Limit	5,612
Bullion	Platinum	Dragon	1	No Limit	3,020
Bullion	Platinum	Griffin	1	No Limit	3,051
Bullion	Platinum	Lion	1	No Limit	4,135
Bullion	SILVER	Dragon	2	No Limit	195,263
Bullion	SILVER	Dragon	10	No Limit	5,077
Bullion	SILVER	Griffin	2	No Limit	183,939
Bullion	SILVER	Griffin	10	No Limit	8,286
Bullion	SILVER	Lion	2	No Limit	259,204
Bullion	SILVER	Lion	10	No Limit	16,305
Bullion	SILVER	Unicorn	2	No Limit	155,700
Bullion	SILVER	Bull	2	No Limit	107,564

 

Another Success under the belt!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Marko]

Good work Pampfan 

[999magnum]

Does this mean that the 1/4oz gold lion is still being minted?

[Pampfan]

I think it means if they wanted to mint more they could.

[Frenchie]

Great job Pampfan, thank you very much.

These numbers are surprising when compared to the previous ones, one year ago.

What I notice is that Lion and Griffin mintages (gold or silver) are really similar  compared to one year before. 

So we can deduct that coins were mostly minted at the beginning, and  slghtly reajusted accordingly with the demand (for example, only 5 to 700 more coins for the Lion and Griffin  1oz or 1/4 oz gold in one year). 

What surprises me is the low mintage for the 1/4 oz gold coins, compared with the 1oz. This is even more surprising as  the 1/4 oz gold have not rised in price. They are still in stock everywhere  at a steady price, while the 1 oz gold Lion and Griffin are now timpossible to find at a price close to spot as they literally have skyrocketed ...

It would mean that the market for 1/4 oz gold coin is really really  lower than those for 1 oz gold....

What is your take on this  ?

 

[FoolzGold]

Very interesting to see these figures.

Something that stands out is the first in series effect - with the first 3 in the series effectively out of production now it's showing nearly twice as many gold Lions out there as Griffins or Dragons, and a good 30% more in silver. I don't know how that will affect resale values in the future. Will there always be more demand for the first, thereby outweighing the larger supply, or will the short supply of later issues give a boost to the subsequent coins?

Once you get past the first in series we only really have two completed runs to compare with each other, showing it's neck and neck in the 1/4 golds but the 1oz gold & 2oz silver dragons have just slightly outsold the griffons. Too early to really comment on the unicorns but it will be interesting to see how the snooty bulls compare in the long run.

[Pampfan]

4 hours ago, Frenchie said:

Great job Pampfan, thank you very much.

These numbers are surprising when compared to the previous ones, one year ago.

What I notice is that Lion and Griffin mintages (gold or silver) are really similar  compared to one year before. 

So we can deduct that coins were mostly minted at the beginning, and  slghtly reajusted accordingly with the demand (for example, only 5 to 700 more coins for the Lion and Griffin  1oz or 1/4 oz gold in one year). 

What surprises me is the low mintage for the 1/4 oz gold coins, compared with the 1oz. This is even more surprising as  the 1/4 oz gold have not rised in price. They are still in stock everywhere  at a steady price, while the 1 oz gold Lion and Griffin are now timpossible to find at a price close to spot as they literally have skyrocketed ...

It would mean that the market for 1/4 oz gold coin is really really  lower than those for 1 oz gold....

What is your take on this  ?

 

I think that there may be more collectors who prefer 1 ounce coins as opposed to 1/4 oz (I prefer the 1/4 ounce ) - What is very interesting is the very low mintages of the bull - This may be the key to the set.

[fehk2001]

1 hour ago, Pampfan said:

I think that there may be more collectors who prefer 1 ounce coins as opposed to 1/4 oz (I prefer the 1/4 ounce ) - What is very interesting is the very low mintages of the bull - This may be the key to the set.

but bull is still a new coin so that figure will goes up 

lion and griffin gold they stop the production so that would be almost the final figure 

[onlyroadtoheaven]

11 hours ago, 999magnum said:

Does this mean that the 1/4oz gold lion is still being minted?

The official line is .... not clear:

For Commemorative coins:

We may on occasion mint coins after the applicable release year but only up to confirmed maximum issuance limits.

For Bullion coins:

A cease of production is usually announced approximately 12 months after the launch date of a new bullion coin product. This is approximate as it is dependent on varying factors, including production and manufacturing schedules and capabilities, but typically is within a few weeks of the 12 month window. The 10oz Silver Queens Beast Dragon for example, which launched on 19th March 2018, will cease towards the end of March/beginning of April 2019. The date of course will remain the same on the coin for the duration.

[FoolzGold]

Given that the lion/griffin/dragon sales are effectively complete (for 1oz gold and 2oz silver) at the time of publication we can draw some tentative conclusions on the progress of series so far.

1oz gold bullion: The dragon has outsold the griffin by almost 10%. Lion population is 72.6% higher than the lowest in the series so far.

2oz silver bullion: The dragon has outsold the griffin by 6.2%. Lion population is 40.9% higher than the lowest in the series so far.

Tentative conclusions:

First in series populations are enormous. In theory these should never be the blocking point for collectors looking to complete a set, more the readily-available gateway drug that can draw people in.

The dragon was a beautiful design but the griffin was almost as nice (imho) so I suspect we can attribute most of the 6 to 10% higher sales of these coins to the appeal of dragon designs to Chinese buyers. If that's the case then this 6 to 10% sales boost is what's behind the mints churning out dragon-based designs by the bucket load.