Platinum - who's buying?

[Lindeman]

@KDave- i bought a boxed set of 2007 Pt Britannias a few weeks ago, so that was not really related to the bullion price.....but yes, with these drops i may well be tempted to grab another ounce of platinum. I am probaby after an Eagle as thats one i need to keep extending a collection of the different 1 ounce Platinum coins available.  So while i am more interested in them because they are nice coins rather than the play on the metals, i do prefer to buy in these dips than when its over $1000 / ounce ?

I have a single ounce of palladium (a Maple) and that is probably staying as my sole piece of Pd ...

lindeman

[KDave]

Nice plan, I think morezone did that buying one of each type of ounce coin, it's a good way to stack weight and get a collection at bullion prices.

Myself I have only one ounce of platinum bought at higher prices, a maple, but did add a couple of the tenth ounce Brits to byb's order this month. Those came along at the right time, a fair bit higher premium than the full ounces but manageable on the reduced budget and can be bought regularly.

I would like some pd but not yet, I want to see where the price goes. I think platinum will act as the ceiling if the market remains rational so I see downside short term (for all metals) and will wait to get a single ounce. The sole reason I am interested when platinum is on the table at the same price, is pd sees use in experimental cold fusion which has been in experimental phase for decades. But you never know, this time next year Rodney  same principle as rhodium. I also have a strange need to finish the maple set too, one of each metal. 

[Lindeman]

@KDave - the rhodium i have yet to get into ....

Just to hopefully keep you motivated - here is my full 4x Maple set, completed back in 2016 when palladium was cheap!   Like you I was determined to get all four metals. Its a lovely sight - and instructive when showing other people why PMs are interesting, as you can use the set to discuss the different sizes / densities / values of each PM.  These are all the bullion versions.  

Now if RCM did a rhodium Maple that would be cool ?

Lindeman 

[vand]

At unprecedented 1.45 Au/Pt ratio, I am a buying back in with enthusiasm. Pt has never been this cheap compared to gold.

[vand]

At the current $920 price, it is highly probable that Pt is trading well below its cost of production:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/418242/average-costs-of-platinum-production-globally-by-region/

[sleepyshpeey]

I need a premium account to look at the link and I find 50 bucks a month a bit too much x.x. 

I must say I'm kinda tempted to buy platinum, its at 915$ now btw^^. I was wondering if a premium for special platina coins is something to consider:

Goldsilver.be sells platinum Britannia for 799 euro. They sell queen beast lion for 823 euro but the description say that year is unkown. Anyone know if this coin has a specific year like the silver coins and is worth a premium? 

[FoolzGold]

Not sure what future there is in platinum but it's always tempting when it gets this low.

Platinum lion is 2017. Interesting to see the premium is actually lower on this at GSbe than on the Griffon or Dragon. Seems like out of production platinum bullion coins don't really have any special premium compared to current products.

Looking at the range of bullion platinum coins I have to say I always liked the Platypus. Very nice coin, although the new Britannia may be a more logical buy at a very similar price.

 

[BackyardBullion]

I have just made a video on some of the negatives I have thought about for the platinum game.

I think there is some risk - but ultimatley it could be a great winning metal. 

 

[FoolzGold]

Thanks for the video BackyardBullion. I can't argue with any of that.

I have much the same feeling about its long term potential being pretty weak, but am also attracted to it just because it seems like it should be even more 'precious' than gold. I also went for platinum wedding rings for the same reason.

In the end I took the plunge and added a QB Lion to the Platypus I bought a little while back but I don't think I'll be buying any more for now and I fully expect to lose money if I ever try to or need to sell these coins in the future.

[Pipers]

Just to let all platinum buyers know,   Platinum is in over production again with the S.A. Government stating it will keep mines open.  Plus Zimbabwe has Platinum mines that are to be expanded .

I do not know what this means to the downward pressure on the price and how far the price fall. 

[RoughDog]

I imagine platinum could be difficult to sell should the time arrive.  Anyone try selling any?  Doesn't look as good as gold in the pictures.

[KDave]

I think if you want to speculate in platinum on short time frames then physical is not the way to go unless it can be found at low premium of course. As you say selling is difficult as dealers will not give you near enough spot to justify. I am focusing on the 1/10 oz coins as I know I can realise the premium tomorrow selling privately if needs be, but the larger coins are less liquid.

[Lowlow]

The "silver isn't money" arguments work on me for platinum.  It shouldn't, platinum is a rare metal, it's created in the same way that gold is created (neutron star collisions), has all the qualities of money (scarcity, durability, divisibility, etc ..) except for "general acceptability", and that is the crux of it for me.  People just don't think of platinum as money - maybe they should, but they just don't, at least I don't.  Silver, yes.  Gold, yes.  But historically platinum, no.  To me platinum has always been "weird gold that I don't understand", or "kinda silver, but expensive", or mostly "that stuff they use in catalytic converters and some jewelry".  Gold and silver are strangely magical to me, silver is the best conductor, gold is this beautifully unique color, but platinum is like .. rhodium, palladium, or uranium, or .. I don't know what, some kind of metal on the periodic table I don't know much about that scientists make a fuss about.

Should I get some physical platinum at this price ?

If I did I would probably just crinkle up my brow and look at it kinda sideways all day. 

[vand]

I like Pt as a speculative play but have no interest in acquiring physical. Trade the paper asset! The spreads will kill you.

If you want a Pt coin then that's fine, but the premiums involved mean that it is not stacker-friendly.

 

[KDave]

From GS.BE the premium is about £50 before delivery on a 2018 Britannia so the % spread including delivery will be a little over 9%. Cheaper than the cheapest physical silver bullion. 

Liquidity is more the issue with physical platinum in my view, like lowlow says no one understands the stuff and its not as shiny as silver. You will have a hard time shifting an ounce and getting spot for it, even the dealers don't want it. Fractionals are better but they are not going to be even as liquid as silver which is a slow mover in my experience. 

That said I do prefer coins because the cost is fixed and I am massively over cautious and pessimistic when I invest . Once you start buying paper positions you can potentially be left holding at a loss and paying for the privilege, what looked cheap at the beginning starts to add up. The pay off with paper is higher liquidity and the potential lower overall cost and I agree it is the better way to speculate with small amounts. Long time frames though, physical is the way to do it, fix the holding cost, reduce the risk of "aaand its gone" and you can play heads or tails with it. 

The 1/10 oz fractional brits are close to a painfully high premium threshold at nearly 20% delivered, its rough paying that kind of premium despite being used to double digit premiums with silver, the cheapest bullion I have is around 14% so not much in it really. I must say that I have bought platinum at higher prices which helps make it easier to add at these prices despite the premiums. 

[Pete]

When we get round to constructing fusion reactors and anti-matter warp drives the demand for Platinum will be high so I bought these this week -

[vand]

21 hours ago, KDave said:

From GS.BE the premium is about £50 before delivery on a 2018 Britannia so the % spread including delivery will be a little over 9%. Cheaper than the cheapest physical silver bullion. 

hmm.. OK, that's pretty good, actually. I was under the impression it was more like 20-30% (which I guess it would be with UK VAT sellers).

Definitely makes diversifying the stack with a few Oz of Pt a more than viable proposition.  Liquidity won't be great come resale, but this is very much a buy and hold idea.

[KDave]

It's a very complex investment case for platinum and should be looked at in conjunction with palladium due to interchangeable demand from both metals largest demand industries. That said the ratios are very good for pt but not pd. 

I've a bit of research on the subject I would be happy to share, mostly based on supply demand figures for both metals. 

[PansPurse]

I guess a lot depends on timescale. Yes the phasing out of petrol vehicles will have an impact, but platinum is a really useful catalyst and other applications could well see dramatic growth over the next few decades. In particular, it forms a key component for many types of hydrogen fuel cells.

But on that front, carbon nanomaterials could be very disruptive if/when they reach maturity.

I'll probably pick some Pt up but that's partially just liking feeling something nice and dense in the hand

[FoolzGold]

Got my 1oz Pt Lion today from GSbe. Nice, and oh so shiny.

[vand]

The thing massively in Pt's favour is its scarcity.

Pt is ten times rarer than gold; there has only ever been 16 metric tonnes of platinum mined throughout human history, a physical block of metal that would fit inside your kitchen.

If the idea of holding physical PMs gains more mainstream acceptance then I can see the investment case for Pt gaining traction very quickly indeed. It would only take a tiny amount of the general population wanting to hold an oz of Pt for its scarcity to become its best feature. 

[ilovesilverireallydo]

11 minutes ago, vand said:

The thing massively in Pt's favour is its scarcity.

Pt is ten times rarer than gold; there has only ever been 16 metric tonnes of platinum mined throughout human history, a physical block of metal that would fit inside your kitchen.

If the idea of holding physical PMs gains more mainstream acceptance then I can see the investment case for Pt gaining traction very quickly indeed. It would only take a tiny amount of the general population wanting to hold an oz of Pt for its scarcity to become its best feature. 

I am not sure where you getting your stats from on Platinum bud, but that is not correct. See Mining figures from 2012-1017 in Metric Tons

 

Of the 218 tonnes of platinum sold in 2014, 98 tonnes were used for vehicle emissions control devices (45%), 74.7 tonnes for jewelry (34%), 20.0 tonnes for chemical production and petroleum refining (9.2%), and 5.85 tonnes for electrical applications such as hard disk drives (2.7%). The remaining 28.9 tonnes went to various other minor applications, such as medicine and biomedicine, glassmaking equipment, investment, electrodes, anticancer drugs, oxygen sensors, spark plugs and turbine engines.

[vand]

10 minutes ago, ilovesilverireallydo said:

I am not sure where you getting your stats from on Platinum bud, but that is not correct. See Mining figures from 2012-1017 in Metric Tons

 

Of the 218 tonnes of platinum sold in 2014, 98 tonnes were used for vehicle emissions control devices (45%), 74.7 tonnes for jewelry (34%), 20.0 tonnes for chemical production and petroleum refining (9.2%), and 5.85 tonnes for electrical applications such as hard disk drives (2.7%). The remaining 28.9 tonnes went to various other minor applications, such as medicine and biomedicine, glassmaking equipment, investment, electrodes, anticancer drugs, oxygen sensors, spark plugs and turbine engines.

 

Yes, you're correct. I was out by a factor of 1000. It's 16,000 tonnes of Pt in the world. 
16tn of Pt could probably fit in your fridge

 

Gold volume is about 160,000 tonnes.

 

[ilovesilverireallydo]

4 minutes ago, vand said:

 

Yes, you're correct. I was out by a factor of 1000. It's 16,000 tonnes of Pt in the world. 

Gold volume is about 160,000 tonnes.

 

Also - that whole "could fit in your room" quote is a much repeated rubbish quote that gets recirculated - you try fitting 16,000 tonnes of platinum in your kitchen

The fact is Platinum IS rare, but not rarer than gold - infact its quite close to gold in terms of rarity ie availability on the upper crust - people just dont mine it as much due to lac of demand - there was a massive resurgence in 2010 in demand, but has since petered down.  There is a lot of misinformation about Platinum on search engines due to shitty articles being regurgitated as facts. 

Jefferson Lab that runs these global surveys have the uppercrust availability of gold at 0.004 while platinum is at 0.005. 
In contrast - 3,100 tonnes of gold is mined each year, and only 170 tonnes of Platinum is mined. 

The demand is lower because its harder to work with as jewellery, the average consumer isnt educated enough about its value and dont appreciate it as much as gold and silver. 

Although rarity does play a role in price, so does demand and desire. 

[vand]

@ilovesilverireallydo all very true, and it's also true of other white metals which are "rarer" but less valued than gold. It's supply and demand, but the market is tiny and very tightly balanced. What I am saying is that it wouldn't take much for demand to completely outstrip supply.