why do you pay what you do

[craig12]

this will be a thread no one agrees with but bear with me , at £14,50 for spot if your not a flipper  why are you not offering spot plus a small percentage on e bay items , surely American eagles are only around £16 aren't they , why should you pay VAT c,mon if were ever gunna get some return we should haggle hard , ive just bought 5 x carded bullion britannias for £80 landed , the gentleman wanted I think £19 each , I was happy for a quick sale the seller was happy  with £16 each , but cmon guys in the uk  why are you paying £22 for phils, noahs ark etc  that's about 50% over spot , maybe I'm on my own here but surely the name of the game is get that buying price down near £16 per oz       I know youll all disagree but as a stacker  why pay £22+ that's crazy isn't it , , I'm sorry if this upsets forum members but  isn't £15/£16 enough for silver in the uk

[Shinus73]

'but cmon guys in the uk  why are you paying £22 for phils, noahs ark etc  that's about 50% over spot '

I suspect most on this forum aren't paying this.

[craig12]

I wouldn't pay any more than £17 on any silver now  why are we obliged to pay vat , id pay a premium or some type of vat equivilant but no premium     vat plus premium is plain stupid for a uk stacker  if youre in this for the long hall  10 coins should not be more than £165 landed at todays spot price

[craig12]

i think £18-£20 per oz is nutz   £16 all day long is good value

[craig12]

Just now, shortstack68 said:

You're obviously fairly excited at your good fortune today......Well done

no sir this is my everyday thinking  £17 max  why would you offer more unless youre on heavy meadication

[craig12]

if spots £14.50 why would anyone pay £180 for 10 coins

Just now, shortstack68 said:

How many Ozs do you have now? Do you keep a spreadsheet of each transaction?

I'm about £16.83 per oz as i bought some in 2014 for around £13 oz

[morezone]

Let me do some maths for the those who aren't good with numbers.

Based on current EU pricing, a Maple/ASE/Phily/Kangaroo is say €19.91.  Current exchange rate is €1.175 so it could cost £16.94.  This pricing does NOT include VAT as it sold on the margin scheme and only includes the premiums from the mint/distributor/dealer.  There is no VAT as 19.94/1.2 is less than spot.

Assuming you buys 20 coins with postage at say €20, then that's €1 postage per coin which equates to 85p and brings the new price to £17.79.  Add on say 0.5% exchange rate fee to pay the dealer in € and the new landed total is £17.88.

Based on this price of today, anyone buying right now and selling right now needs to achieve £17.88 to break even.  Selling on eBay requires 10% fee and ~3.5% Pay Pal so we'll add this one but before we do, we need to add on postage.  Shall we call it £2.10 1st class signed-for?  I think this is the preferred service used by most people selling coins. We are now up to £19.98 without fees.

Next we need to add on fees of 15% taking it to £22.98.  3.5% Pay Pal is 80p and 10% eBay is £2.30.  Take that off £22.98 leaves £19.88 so it is actually a little more than 15% that is needed.

Yes, you can offer people on eBay less than £23 but if they have bought recently after brexit and at ~£14/oz spot, they would be losing money.  That's not to say that people won't sell at a loss because there are some who do and will.  Some people haven't done the maths and some people need to get shot quickly.  Then there are those who bought at less than £14 spot so their overall recoup cost is less.

My numbers are rough and depending on where you go and how many coins you buy at once there is some movement.  At the end of the day £22 is probably the bare minimum needed on eBay to break even.  You can put in offers but the chances of them being accepted is low and for most it's probably a waste of time making contact knowing that there is a 95%+ chance of being turned down.

Anyway...someone selling a single coin at £19 with 1st class signed-for will get back:

£19 * 0.85 - £2.10 = £14.05 and if they sold with just 1st class it'll be around £15.

For most of us here, we just buy from the EU and probably pay around £17-£18 landed for new coins on a decent size order (~20 coins maybe).  Takes the hassle out of everything.

 

[Agpanda]

I dont mind paying 6-800$ for a single panda if I realy want it

[craig12]

whattttttttttt  your all crazy  you've more money than sense  on these answers this is a collectors/numismatics  forum silver stackers for profit should deafinatley look to a stackers forum

[Agpanda]

If I buy a panda for let say 600$ hold on it for a year and sell it for 900$ ( as I have done in the past)

Thats 50% gain, you need to get 24£ on your 16£ investment to get the same profit in %

I just dont think silver will go up that much in a year

But I know that there is more collectors starting on pandas every week

And a lot of them wants to go back and do a daterun

 

[Scuzzle]

Spot might well be £14.50 an ounce but we all appreciate there is VAT to pay in the UK and there is the fee added for pressing this ounce of silver into a coin shape and stamping an animal or whatever onto it so we fully expect to pay more than spot.  That £3 odd more is standard and I don't grudge Ebay sellers adding enough to cover their fees.

[BackyardBullion]

It all comes down to a few things which will be different for everyone.

Stacking goals and stacking strategies. 

I myself am in this for the long haul. If I have to sell off my investment stack before I retire I have done something wrong with my budgeting strategy and goals!

If I want to buy a coin for more than £18/oz I look it at from a non bullion angle. I look to see whether it will be a possible numismatic earner and then weigh up whether I think it is worth the risk of paying more than bullion prices. 

44 minutes ago, craig12 said:

whattttttttttt  your all crazy  you've more money than sense  on these answers this is a collectors/numismatics  forum silver stackers for profit should deafinatley look to a stackers forum

Your strategy of buying only for less than £17/oz is great...for you...but I think it is important to respect other people's strategy and not call them maniacs for buying something to turn a profit. Some people buy rare coins, grade them and sell them on for higher profits..people like me take silver shot, melt it into something nice and try to scrape a bit of profit for our time! I also dabble in some of the other numismatic/precious metals categories as it is a hobby and an interest and I also think it is important to have a diverse portfolio! 

Ultimately whether it is Gold, Silver, Platinum, Diamonds, Cars, Stocks & Shares, Houses, Books, Art...the list is endless to be honest...as long as you are happy with what you are doing and within your own budgets and goals who cares how much you spend on 1 oz of silver!

[HyHy]

56 minutes ago, Agpanda said:

If I buy a panda for let say 600$ hold on it for a year and sell it for 900$ ( as I have done in the past)

Thats 50% gain, you need to get 24£ on your 16£ investment to get the same profit in %

I just dont think silver will go up that much in a year

But I know that there is more collectors starting on pandas every week

And a lot of them wants to go back and do a daterun

 

I'm with @Agpanda, especially for rare and key dates people are willing pay big money the number of these quality coins will just keep going down as time goes by. I'm pretty sure this applies to other worlds coins as well.

[jayboat]

I personally am seeing that even with a small increase in spot over the last year, that gold looks more attractive. I see the resale pound value of silver bullion on ebay going up slower then the buy pound value, ie, margins are being squeezed. I see and dont understand why some older bullion sell for the same are sometimes less then the current year. I mainly buy a certain amount of certain bullion every year and stick to that. I then buy other stuff that i like the look of to keep it interesting. 

I think as the price of silver goes up, vat will be a big factor in my buying, i dread to see the cost of buying bullion from somewhere like atkinsons with the vat. Within the article 5 triggered, we may are may not get vat free silver in 2 years. This would push me into gold i think. 

[Clens92]

Some of the spelling in this thread makes me want to cry.

That is all.

[vand]

The only premium that you should be concerned with is the % above spot that you are paying for a particular coin/round/bar.

I personally don't like to pay more than 20-21% for anything up to a Brit/ASE.

BTW as spot increases this should come down. It is not linear, but at £15 silver a 20% premium on Brits is reasonable, while at £30 silver if/when we get there I would expect premiums to be <20% but more than >10%.

[vand]

17 hours ago, jayboat said:

I see and dont understand why some older bullion sell for the same are sometimes less then the current year. I mainly buy a certain amount of certain bullion every year and stick to that. I then buy other stuff that i like the look of to keep it interesting. 

Well you can still easily get 2016 Pandas at not much above ASE/Brit prices, so I guess the air is popping out of that particular mini bubble.

[vand]

19 hours ago, morezone said:

Let me do some maths for the those who aren't good with numbers.

Based on current EU pricing, a Maple/ASE/Phily/Kangaroo is say €19.91.  Current exchange rate is €1.175 so it could cost £16.94.  This pricing does NOT include VAT as it sold on the margin scheme and only includes the premiums from the mint/distributor/dealer.  There is no VAT as 19.94/1.2 is less than spot.

Assuming you buys 20 coins with postage at say €20, then that's €1 postage per coin which equates to 85p and brings the new price to £17.79.  Add on say 0.5% exchange rate fee to pay the dealer in € and the new landed total is £17.88.

Based on this price of today, anyone buying right now and selling right now needs to achieve £17.88 to break even.  Selling on eBay requires 10% fee and ~3.5% Pay Pal so we'll add this one but before we do, we need to add on postage.  Shall we call it £2.10 1st class signed-for?  I think this is the preferred service used by most people selling coins. We are now up to £19.98 without fees.

Next we need to add on fees of 15% taking it to £22.98.  3.5% Pay Pal is 80p and 10% eBay is £2.30.  Take that off £22.98 leaves £19.88 so it is actually a little more than 15% that is needed.

Yes, you can offer people on eBay less than £23 but if they have bought recently after brexit and at ~£14/oz spot, they would be losing money.  That's not to say that people won't sell at a loss because there are some who do and will.  Some people haven't done the maths and some people need to get shot quickly.  Then there are those who bought at less than £14 spot so their overall recoup cost is less.

My numbers are rough and depending on where you go and how many coins you buy at once there is some movement.  At the end of the day £22 is probably the bare minimum needed on eBay to break even.  You can put in offers but the chances of them being accepted is low and for most it's probably a waste of time making contact knowing that there is a 95%+ chance of being turned down.

Anyway...someone selling a single coin at £19 with 1st class signed-for will get back:

£19 * 0.85 - £2.10 = £14.05 and if they sold with just 1st class it'll be around £15.

For most of us here, we just buy from the EU and probably pay around £17-£18 landed for new coins on a decent size order (~20 coins maybe).  Takes the hassle out of everything.

 

Not disputing any of this, but the market doesn't care about your costs any more than it cares about what a buyer thinks the price they should be able to buy at. It is supply and demand and if you can't sell what you want to for more than it costs to bring it to the market then it is not a viable venture to sell them on Fleabay.

What the OP is wondering, and I do myself, is why on earth anyone is willing to pay spot +50% for coins that you can get for spot +25% if you go about your buying in a different manner. Sure it's "only" £2 per coin extra, but if you are trying to accumulate as many ounces as you can for the amount you have available to spend, then that starts to add up over hundreds and thousands of ounces.

But yeah, people love Fleabay because it's about the cheap thrills of bidding auctions as much as it is about accumulating PMs.

[BaldyBob]

Due to VAT (even low German levels) stacking silver is a waste of time in the UK.

If you are a collector fine, but for stacking, choose gold. Whilst it is still VAT free anyway.

[morezone]

@vand We've been round and round with this with craig for 3 years.  His buy prices are unrealistic on the whole.  You can get the odd deal here and there but going through eBay you generally end up paying more than you would going direct to a dealer in the EU.  People pay those higher prices because they may be after a single specific coin or only buy the odd coin every now and again just for fun.  Any one after a decent number of ounces will just buy from a EU dealer and avoid all the fees etc associated with eBay.  It always comes back to eBay with him or one of the UK dealers adding VAT on.

Quote

at £14,50 for spot if your not a flipper  why are you not offering spot plus a small percentage on e bay items

Most of the time people will just laugh and refuse because the maths in obtaining bullion coins at £16 or thereabout on eBay is few and far between.  I could go about offering spot + a few % to everyone as he has suggested but I know for certain it is going to be more or less a waste of my time.

Quote

It is supply and demand and if you can't sell what you want to for more than it costs to bring it to the market

eBay pricing is at a price that people are willing to pay otherwise they wouldn't sell but that price is just too high for some and quite understandable.  If people weren't willing to pay it maybe it would be cheaper.  I think most people realise that if spot is £14.50 and eBay fees are 15% and postage is another few %, then there little point selling for any less than that as you could just go to a dealer and off load them for a little under spot (or somewhere close I hope).

At the end of the day he thinks people are mad paying collector premiums on coins.  That's fair enough.  Some people want the cheapest possible price/oz and don't care about collectability.  He also thinks people are mad paying any form of premium higher than a few % over spot.  On this side of the pond it's pretty much how it goes.  His target price of £165 delivered for 10 coins at spot today of £14.50 is around 13%.  £180 is a more realistic price and although we don't like to pay it, we do because that is pretty much the dealer price after all costs are added on.  He's not suggesting that we just buy cheap bullion at ~25%.  He's suggesting that we buy cheap bullion at unrealistic prices.  If it was so easy, I'm sure we'd all be doing it.

People are entitled to buy which ever coins and rounds they want at whatever premium they want.  If they are stacking pure weight, then it makes sense to stack the cheapest at the cheapest realistic prices.  If people want to capitalise on the collector market, then that is fine as well.  If people want to do a bit of both, then that's fine too.  Like stocks and shares.  You could go for capital growth, dividend yield or a bit of both.

I've waffled.  I've gone on and on.  

Buy what you want.  Stack what you want.  Do what you want.  Your life, your money and your choice.

 

 

[Danny-boy]

We've been round and round with this with craig for 3 years.  His buy prices are unrealistic on the whole.

Ain't that the truth.

He only pipes up when he's managed another of his annual "good buys" on eBay.

If he had any sense, he'd stack gold. Then he wouldn't need to worry about premiums so much.

I wonder why he doesn't stack gold. Oh hang on a minute.........