Gold Sovereign's

[DogSoldier1973]

If any of you have seen my youtube channel you will know that i have a passion for the Gold Sovereign and his little brother the half sovereign I bought my first sovereign in 2012, it was a full sovereign of the current year with the new design to commemorate the Queen's Diamond Jubilee. Since then i have bought some more full sovereigns and a couple of half sovereigns and i love them!

 

I was just wondering if there are any more gold sovereign collectors on here? and wondered what sovereigns you go after? As i've said i already had the 2012 and i got the 2013 last year and i'm going to buy the new 2014 and at least one of the new date sovereigns as they come out each year.....I've also picked up some Victorian sovereigns and half sovereigns and have a few of the young head Victoria's from different mints.

 

So yeah....Which sovereigns do you go after? Is it the Victoria's, Edward's, George's or do you go for the brand new ones? Or is it that you go after certain dates or mints?

[Shamatti]

I had a momentary phase with sovereigns. lol

 

I got a 1965 1966 1968 and a 1980

 

These are the years myslef, and my siblings were born. (I am not telling you which one is mine! lol)

 

I left it at that though. Too adictive. lol

[Danny-boy]

I do like the sovereigns, but it always comes back to how much silver I could have for that little bit of gold.

Just can't bring myself to do it.

[Dave]

I have a good collection of early head(bun head) Victoria sovereigns , one of my fav , think she looks very classy ,and very much of the period , funny the 1902- 1914 (I think? ) Hold the most value in bullion terms with lower mintage

[Danny-boy]

I always remember my old man telling me how he got offered 58 gold sovereigns for £3000 a long time ago, and he didn't buy them.

He had the money, but it would have put him below his base savings level.

Guess they would be worth about 12k now.

Guess it was his only regret.

[DogSoldier1973]

I've heard before that the Edward sovereigns are most sort after and hold value well....but when i looked further into it i found that young head Victoria's tend to sell for more, maybe it chops and changes.....

 

£3000 for 58 Sovereigns would have been a great deal to make money, shame he didn't get them! £12k would have been the absolute minimum...as there could have been some more sort after ones that sell for a big premium.

[Dave]

I remember a workout I posted in 2012 on another forum , if you had bought I coin a month over 10 years starting in 2002 ,and took the spot price of gold as the 1st jan for each year , the total was amazing ( can't remember what it was) if you had sold the lot on 1st jan 2012, some years you could have bought coins for as little as £30.00 each , with the sterling/ dollar difference ,

[DogSoldier1973]

I remember a workout I posted in 2012 on another forum , if you had bought I coin a month over 10 years starting in 2002 ,and took the spot price of gold as the 1st jan for each year , the total was amazing ( can't remember what it was) if you had sold the lot on 1st jan 2012, some years you could have bought coins for as little as £30.00 each , with the sterling/ dollar difference ,

Damn Dave! You certainly know how to give somebody a bad day! lol

[Danny-boy]

That's amazing.

I'm hoping the same is true for the silver I'm stacking.

We shall see.

[Pete]

I like sovereigns and if you can get proof sets in FDC condition you will be amazed at the £5 ( five sovereign coin ).

A good coin in my opinion for collecting is the Victoria Shield half sovereign.

Prices have risen in the last few years, maybe because they are becoming rarer as coins are melted into refined bars ?

[CurryMuncher69]

Can someone give me a brief explanation on gold Sovereigns. I am new to PM and I find the weight of then coins around 7 grams which is really odd. 

Did Britain issue out sovereigns during the gold standard? and What is the best way to stack fractional gold, I read somewhere that sovereigns are the best in terms of premium per oz . 

[DogSoldier1973]

OK the Gold Sovereign was first issued in Britain in 1489. But the sovereigns that we know and love called "Modern Sovereigns" have been issued from 1817 onwards. They stopped production in 1937 and restarted in 1957 though after this date they did not produce sovereigns every single year...some years were skipped and some years only proofs were sold. The full gold sovereign was in circulation until the beginning of WW1 (1914). If you are buying uncirculated gold sovereigns then they should weigh 7.98 grams sometimes very slightly over....but more often than not 7.98 grams. If you are buying circulated sovereigns then obviously you have to allow for wear...so don't be surprised to see them as low as 7.91 grams. 

English law allowed a sovereign to be legal tender so long as it weighed 7.937g or more so once it got down below that level it was no longer deemed as legal tender and was returned to the mint for re-melting. Bullion sovereign can be bought for quite near to spot so they are a fantastic coin to stack! They are recognised worldwide! In fact they are probably the most recognised gold bullion coin in world. Half sovereigns can be had for not much more money than a 1/10th gold coin yet they have 1/2 gram more gold content and are a bigger coin  

 

Gold Sovereign's should come with a warning though! Once you buy one....YOU WILL WANT MORE! 

 

The full gold sovereign's measurements are:

Weight 7.98 grams

Diameter 22.05 mm

Fineness .916 = 22k Gold

Thickness 1.52mm

Actual gold weight 7.32 grams

 

The half sovereign's measurements are:

Weight 3.99 grams

Diameter 19.3 mm

Fineness .916 = 22k Gold

Thickness 1mm

Actual gold weight 3.65 grams

[ChrisSilver]

I remember a workout I posted in 2012 on another forum , if you had bought I coin a month over 10 years starting in 2002 ,and took the spot price of gold as the 1st jan for each year , the total was amazing ( can't remember what it was) if you had sold the lot on 1st jan 2012, some years you could have bought coins for as little as £30.00 each , with the sterling/ dollar difference ,

 

What was the average cost per sovereign coin? Can't be £30 surely.

If so, total spend on coins would have been £3600 for 120 coins weighting 7.98805g each. a total of 958.56g.

At todays spot prices, gold about 25.89 per gram. Todays valuation would be about £24,817. (if average buy £30 per coin: average yearly profit 68.93%)

Jan 1 2012 spot price per gram $51.99 (at 1st jan 2012 exchange rate) £33.5288 per gram. 1st jan 2012 valuation £32,139. (if average buy £30 per coin: average yearly profit 89.28%)

Those % increases sound awesome. But I think that's because the assumed average in my calculations is incorrect. I could work it out properly from here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gold_Spot_Price_per_Gram_from_Jan_1971_to_Jan_2012.svg and also take into account the exchange rates at the time, but I don't have spare time to do.

The cost of 1gram in 2002 was only $8.97. Crazy!. Maybe todays prices will seem ridiculously cheap in 10+ years time!

 

[ChrisSilver]

OK the Gold Sovereign was first issued in Britain in 1489. But the sovereigns that we know and love called "Modern Sovereigns" have been issued from 1817 onwards. They stopped production in 1937 and restarted in 1957 though after this date they did not produce sovereigns every single year...some years were skipped and some years only proofs were sold. The full gold sovereign was in circulation until the beginning of WW1 (1914). If you are buying uncirculated gold sovereigns then they should weigh 7.98 grams sometimes very slightly over....but more often than not 7.98 grams. If you are buying circulated sovereigns then obviously you have to allow for wear...so don't be surprised to see them as low as 7.91 grams. 

English law allowed a sovereign to be legal tender so long as it weighed 7.937g or more so once it got down below that level it was no longer deemed as legal tender and was returned to the mint for re-melting. Bullion sovereign can be bought for quite near to spot so they are a fantastic coin to stack! They are recognised worldwide! In fact they are probably the most recognised gold bullion coin in world. Half sovereigns can be had for not much more money than a 1/10th gold coin yet they have 1/2 gram more gold content and are a bigger coin

 

Gold Sovereign's should come with a warning though! Once you buy one....YOU WILL WANT MORE! 

 

The full gold sovereign's measurements are:

Weight 7.98 grams

Diameter 22.05 mm

Fineness .916 = 22k Gold

Thickness 1.52mm

Actual gold weight 7.32 grams

 

The half sovereign's measurements are:

Weight 3.99 grams

Diameter 19.3 mm

Fineness .916 = 22k Gold

Thickness 1mm

Actual gold weight 3.65 grams

 

Thanks for the useful info DogSoilder I have never bought any gold sovereigns, they sound so small. I would be afraid to loose it.

 

I didn't realise they had such low premiums! This looks nice: http://www.coininvest.com/en/gold-coins/sovereign/full-sovereign-elizabeth-gold-2014/ is this a good price for a sovereign?

Based on that price I make it £852.80 per ounce. Spot is at £805.

1oz kangaroo nugget is only £847.88 from coininvest at the moment

[DogSoldier1973]

Another thing i'd say is if you are going to stack/collect sovereign's is learn learn learn! Learn as much as you can about them! There size, weight, what year exist, what years don't, what mints etc etc and study the design especially the George and the Dragon design...look at it in detail until your eyes bleed! lol Once you've studied the coin....it's amazing how you can then go to ebay and scroll through saying that's a fake! that's a fake! and that's a fake!

 

The last thing i'd say is...buy "ONLY" from a dealer until you get to grips with what to look for Once you have real sovereigns in you hand to compare with you'll feel much better and get to know them better. When i first started buying sovereign's i bought the Fisch set http://www.thefisch.com/

For a new collector/stacker then this is a fantastic tool! they are expensive but if it saves you from buying just one fake sovereign it has paid for itself.

 

I've just had a conversation with somebody on my youtube account about this, as i have done a video about the set on there.

 

I told him a story i had read on the family pages of the Fisch site. One lady bought this set then took it to a dealer to help her buy 150 sovereigns, the dealer brought out all the sovereigns and the lady sat down and went through each of them using this set....out of the 150 sovereigns 10 of them failed the fisch test! The dealer replaced the 10 dodgy sovereigns with 10 different ones and the lady went away happy with 150 Fisch safe sovereigns. The dealer was left with 10 dodgy sovereigns that he probably had to scrap....So yes they are expensive, but they saved that lady a lot of money!

[DogSoldier1973]

Thanks for the useful info DogSoilder I have never bought any gold sovereigns, they sound so small. I would be afraid to loose it.

 

I didn't realise they had such low premiums! This looks nice: http://www.coininvest.com/en/gold-coins/sovereign/full-sovereign-elizabeth-gold-2014/ is this a good price for a sovereign?

Based on that price I make it £852.80 per ounce. Spot is at £805.

1oz kangaroo nugget is only £847.88 from coininvest at the moment

Yeah £200 is a great price Chris! 

 

Just for comparison if you bought a Sovereign for £200 from there then had to do the unthinkable and take it to a "we buy gold place" for quick cash they would give you £180 for it If you took it to a sovereign dealer they would give you more than £180....I think that's pretty good. That's why i struggle sometimes buying silver in the UK....You get much more for your money buying gold

 

Check it out at http://www.scrapgolduk.co.uk/ just put 7.98 grams and change it to 22 Carat.

[ChrisSilver]

Yeah £200 is a great price Chris!

Just for comparison if you bought a Sovereign for £200 from there then had to do the unthinkable and take it to a "we buy gold place" for quick cash they would give you £180 for it If you took it to a sovereign dealer they would give you more than £180....I think that's pretty good. That's why i struggle sometimes buying silver in the UK....You get much more for your money buying gold

Check it out at http://www.scrapgolduk.co.uk/ just put 7.98 grams and change it to 22 Carat.

Yea gold has advantages and I want to start buying a little bit. Looking at a chart though, gold seems mid to low price and silver seems so cheap! Every time I look at a silver chart I just want to buy more silver. You get much more for your money buying silver! Literally nearly 1kg of silver for 1oz gold.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Pete]

I have a fair collection of sovereigns and half sovereigns.

My buy price has typically been London Fix plus 3% but that is hard to find nowadays after the big falls in spot price this year as demand has been high and dealers can charge a bit more without scaring off buyers.

Expect to pay for bullion spot plus 4 or maybe 5%.

If you can get cheaper then jump in.

 

When selling look for dealers that will buy back at 98% spot or even spot - they are out there.

 

My advice to collectors starting out is to get a good electronic scale and weigh each coin.

You want to be able to measure accurately to <0.1 gram

Cheap scales will suffice for beginners - eBay shipped from China for about £5 but having started with two I ended up paying nearer £30 and purchased the "Henry 50" in the UK. This scale is accurate and stable to 0.01g. Cheaper scales will fluctuate and drift at this precision.

Also get a vernier calliper or micrometer to measure diameter and thickness.

Measuring thickness is not so straightforward as coins have rims and cameo but you will soon see that all coins slide through a known gap.

 

How to detect a fake or jeweller's copy ?

With the above kit fairly easy as your fake will most certainly be underweight and more than likely too thick.

It is impossible to substitute for 22 carat gold with other metals and have the correct weight and size of coin.

Fakers using 18 carat gold, tungsten or mixed alloys cannot achieve the correct weight whilst maintaining thickness.

A sovereign should weigh 7.988g with a thickness of 1.52mm but a worn sovereign might weigh 7.94g.

A fake is likely to be around 7.65g

Some sovereigns weigh 8.00 or even 8.02g usually due to a higher rim which is why thickness measurement can be subjective.

 

Half sovereigns are exactly half a full sovereign so look for 3.98g but typically expect 3.92g ( worn ) to 4.01g

Thickness tends not to be specified but I use 0.992 so a half sovereign should slide through a 1.0 mm gap.

 

The new sovereign coins are much shinier with a mirror-like finish compared to older duller coins.

 

Despite all the do's and don'ts I always clean old and often grubby sovereigns in an ultrasonic bath to remove the dirt and 100 years of grease and other stuff.

They look much better without black earwax etc in the grooves and as they are bullion it has no bearing on the resale price.

 

Anyone needing to know more just keep posting on this forum.

[CurryMuncher69]

Thanks guys, my monthly purchases of silver, will contain at least a half sovereign !! 

What was the price of a gold soveriegn during the 2011 peak? 

I would like to have atleast 16 full gold soveriegn coins this time next year. 

[Pete]

Thanks guys, my monthly purchases of silver, will contain at least a half sovereign !! 

What was the price of a gold soveriegn during the 2011 peak? 

I would like to have atleast 16 full gold soveriegn coins this time next year. 

On 5th Sept. 2011 spot was £37.43 / g so a full sovereign could be purchased for £282 - £288 based on 3% - 5% margin over spot.

[Dave]

What was the average cost per sovereign coin? Can't be £30 surely.

If so, total spend on coins would have been £3600 for 120 coins weighting 7.98805g each. a total of 958.56g.

At todays spot prices, gold about 25.89 per gram. Todays valuation would be about £24,817. (if average buy £30 per coin: average yearly profit 68.93%)

Jan 1 2012 spot price per gram $51.99 (at 1st jan 2012 exchange rate) £33.5288 per gram. 1st jan 2012 valuation £32,139. (if average buy £30 per coin: average yearly profit 89.28%)

Those % increases sound awesome. But I think that's because the assumed average in my calculations is incorrect. I could work it out properly from here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gold_Spot_Price_per_Gram_from_Jan_1971_to_Jan_2012.svg and also take into account the exchange rates at the time, but I don't have spare time to do.

The cost of 1gram in 2002 was only $8.97. Crazy!. Maybe todays prices will seem ridiculously cheap in 10+ years time!

No the around £30.00 was the lowest price, + the £ could buy more $ , took just under 1/4 price of gold on 2/1 2002 - 2/1 2012 as an average x 12 X10 =

[Dave]

Best thing for fake sovereigns is a Victorian sovereign scales, ebay £25.00-30.00 , cannot believe Fisch were allowed to patient a design that has been used for 2 hundred years , original is best

[DogSoldier1973]

Best thing for fake sovereigns is a Victorian sovereign scales, ebay £25.00-30.00 , cannot believe Fisch were allowed to patient a design that has been used for 2 hundred years , original is best

I have both the Victorian sovereign balance's and the fisch and IMO the fisch is FAR better! The Victorian balance is ok....but the problem with it, is it is a balance so you don't get a definite yes or no, where as with the fisch it tips and touches so you get a definite yes, and also the Victorian balance is metal so can scratch your sovereigns as you pass them through the slot (Which i think are over sized) where as the fisch is tough plastic precisely machine cut and won't scratch your sovereigns and the recess is also oversize so the sovereign and half sovereign has movement room on the Victorian balance where as on the fisch it is nice and tight! 

Like i said i have both....but i'd use the fisch over the sovereign balance any day of the week. 

 

I think they were probably allowed to patent the design because they have a completely different final result when they operate....like i said the Victorian balance is "a balance" and the fisch is "a scale". 

 

Just out of interest, have you ever had a Fisch Dave?

[Dave]

I have both the Victorian sovereign balance's and the fisch and IMO the fisch is FAR better! The Victorian balance is ok....but the problem with it, is it is a balance so you don't get a definite yes or no, where as with the fisch it tips and touches so you get a definite yes, and also the Victorian balance is metal so can scratch your sovereigns as you pass them through the slot (Which i think are over sized) where as the fisch is tough plastic precisely machine cut and won't scratch your sovereigns and the recess is also oversize so the sovereign and half sovereign has movement room on the Victorian balance where as on the fisch it is nice and tight! 

Like i said i have both....but i'd use the fisch over the sovereign balance any day of the week. 

 

I think they were probably allowed to patent the design because they have a completely different final result when they operate....like i said the Victorian balance is "a balance" and the fisch is "a scale". 

 

Just out of interest, have you ever had a Fisch Dave?

I. No , would not pay big money for a bit of plastic , not when the original is better, always bring it with me when I buy sovereigns , if they don't pass the 3 tests ,I don't buy ,

[DogSoldier1973]

I. No , would not pay big money for a bit of plastic , not when the original is better, always bring it with me when I buy sovereigns , if they don't pass the 3 tests ,I don't buy ,

No disrespect bud, but i can't see how you can make that statement when you have not tried both......