A counterfeit sovereign stuck in platinum

[Stu]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-Counterfeit-Sovereign-struck-in-Platinum-/121711337603?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1c568fa083

As the title suggest, anyone heard of anything like this/ thoughts on this piece?

[Hookythestacker]

This from Chards

Platinum Forgeries

Between the 1860's and about 1881, platinum was used, in Spain, to counterfeit gold coins including sovereigns. These were apparently made to order for a North American, the coins being mainly destined for use in South America. Although platinum is denser than gold, by alloying it with an appropriate amount of copper, it can be brought to the correct density. It was then gold plated, and apparently made very effective counterfeits. The practice is believed to have stopped only because the price of platinum rose to an uneconomic level. It is likely that the fakes would be worth more now than the originals. Platinum fake sovereigns have been recorded of shield sovereigns dated between 1861 and 1872.

http://www.goldsovereigns.co.uk/fakes.html

[Stu]

Good call hooky, would certainly fit date wise, but could this be a forgery of a forgery? :-)

Would not be paying the asking price in any case. Funny how platinum was worth forging with give its relative scarcity to gold.

[Hookythestacker]

Could the fake of the fake be worth more than the original, it's a murky old business once you start dabbling in forgeries isn't it? I know a few collectors who won't have anything to do with them, some dealers wouldn't touch them with a barge pole either. I'd advise a bit of caution befor starting a known contemporary counterfeit collection, it's a whole new ballgame.

[Scuzzle]

This could be collectible if you can find the story behind it,  I'm guessing the coin has a cross scored through it because it was found to be a fake and the story behind how it got this might add to it's appeal. 

[sovereignsteve]

Why would anyone collect fakes, I have no idea?

This coin is horrible to look at, it's a travesty of the real thing.

I wonder who marked it with those scratches? It reminds me of a conversation I once had with Lawrence; we were musing over a 1822 G4 sovereign I had, a year known for it's excellent fakes and he said the only guaranteed way to find out was to send it to the Royal Mint museum for inspection. The only drawback, he said, was that if it did turn out to be fake, they would stamp it "counterfeit"!

Plated fakes are easy to spot these days (by anyone with one) by XRF analysis as they would show as 24ct not 22ct.

This one does show the wear points of this design quite nicely though.

[silverin]

Fake coins can be very collectible and valuable indeed.

There is a guy on one of the old coin forums who collects old Mexican 8 Reales. Quite a collection he has too, but it's not for me.

[LawrenceChard]

On 04/08/2015 at 22:29, Stu said:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-Counterfeit-Sovereign-struck-in-Platinum-/121711337603?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1c568fa083

 

As the title suggest, anyone heard of anything like this/ thoughts on this piece?

It would have been preferable to post a screenshot of the ebay item, and possibly also the photos, as ebay remove listings after about 90 days.

As often, I had already published information about platinum being used to create counterfeit sovereigns. This is one link https://24carat.co.uk/frame.php?url=platinumcoins.html

but I see another TSF member has already included a similar link from one of our other websites.

[LawrenceChard]

On 05/08/2015 at 00:12, sovereignsteve said:

Why would anyone collect fakes, I have no idea?

This coin is horrible to look at, it's a travesty of the real thing.

I wonder who marked it with those scratches? It reminds me of a conversation I once had with Lawrence; we were musing over a 1822 G4 sovereign I had, a year known for it's excellent fakes and he said the only guaranteed way to find out was to send it to the Royal Mint museum for inspection. The only drawback, he said, was that if it did turn out to be fake, they would stamp it "counterfeit"!

Plated fakes are easy to spot these days (by anyone with one) by XRF analysis as they would show as 24ct not 22ct.

This one does show the wear points of this design quite nicely though.

Thanks for the mention.

As a professional numismatist, I consider it essential to study fakes, and to learn to know the difference.

I also recommend it for collectors, stackers, and investors, thereby becoming numismatists in the process.

If the study of fakes is worthwhile, then collecting them also becomes worthwhile, although it would not be for everybody, but then we are all different.

It is possible to control the caratage of plating, so a clever forger could ensure that his fakes were plated using 22ct gold, and could also fine tune its precise alloy constituents to mimic authenticity.

Fortunately, Niton XRF machines are calibrated to detect gold plating, although I doubt this is infallible. Other brands of XRF machines probably also include similar technology.

[LawrenceChard]

On 04/08/2015 at 22:51, Hookythestacker said:

This from Chards

 

Platinum Forgeries

Between the 1860's and about 1881, platinum was used, in Spain, to counterfeit gold coins including sovereigns. These were apparently made to order for a North American, the coins being mainly destined for use in South America. Although platinum is denser than gold, by alloying it with an appropriate amount of copper, it can be brought to the correct density. It was then gold plated, and apparently made very effective counterfeits. The practice is believed to have stopped only because the price of platinum rose to an uneconomic level. It is likely that the fakes would be worth more now than the originals. Platinum fake sovereigns have been recorded of shield sovereigns dated between 1861 and 1872.

 

http://www.goldsovereigns.co.uk/fakes.html

Thanks for adding the link.

[LawrenceChard]

On 04/08/2015 at 23:14, Hookythestacker said:

Could the fake of the fake be worth more than the original, it's a murky old business once you start dabbling in forgeries isn't it? I know a few collectors who won't have anything to do with them, some dealers wouldn't touch them with a barge pole either. I'd advise a bit of caution befor starting a known contemporary counterfeit collection, it's a whole new ballgame.

What if it's a fake of a fake of a fake?

Stop that, this is getting ridiculous! (nod to Monty Python) 🙂

[LawrenceChard]

On 05/08/2015 at 11:21, silverin said:

Fake coins can be very collectible and valuable indeed.

There is a guy on one of the old coin forums who collects old Mexican 8 Reales. Quite a collection he has too, but it's not for me.

Fake George II and George III copper coins are also highly collectable, with some possibly more valuable than the genuine article.

They are also interesting, and can be quite entertaining, particularly with blundered legends.

[sovereignsteve]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

Thanks for the mention.

As a professional numismatist, I consider it essential to study fakes, and to learn to know the difference.

I also recommend it for collectors, stackers, and investors, thereby becoming numismatists in the process.

If the study of fakes is worthwhile, then collecting them also becomes worthwhile, although it would not be for everybody, but then we are all different.

It is possible to control the caratage of plating, so a clever forger could ensure that his fakes were plated using 22ct gold, and could also fine tune its precise alloy constituents to mimic authenticity.

Fortunately, Niton XRF machines are calibrated to detect gold plating, although I doubt this is infallible. Other brands of XRF machines probably also include similar technology.

I can't remember the platinum coin in question but I will have been referring to obvious monstrosities. I agree entirely with you concerning the study of numismatic forgeries. I have had the misfortune to have bought some in my time and have kept them for a while in order to study them, until the gold contained in them wanted to be liquidated. I once bought a batch of 3 or 4 sovereign forgeries for interest. In fact I should still have them, problem being I can't remember where there are😁

BTW you won't remember the occasion in question but that 1822 graded up as PCGS 55 or 58 I can't remember which, probably 55 as we decided it didn't quite make EF

[SilverStorm]

IMHO, the only time it is warranted to have a fake in your possession is if you need a fake for comparison testing with the genuine metal.  If you've never seen a fake, are you able to spot one without prior knowledge or training?  I certainly couldn't.