Thoughts about Royal Mint Signature Range?

[Guest]

Hello,

I was wondering what were peoples thoughts about the Royal Mint Signature Range for Au, Ag and Pt?

From what I have read, there is a minimum investment amount of £20 and it is stored, fully insured, in their vault, and you buy and/or sell to them when you want, 24/7.

While you don't have the bullion physically in your hand you still own the bullion (much like BBP or Chards storages) and that is the only disadvantage I can think of, given that you have the ability to buy bullion at a low price, especially if you have some "spare cash" to that you want to invest but it's not have enough to buy bullion coins or bars. Plus, I see it as a way of diversifying a portfolio and having a range of assets.

Thoughts and comments are welcomed 🙂

Thanks,

C60.

[Martlet]

I looked at the signature service, became confused when it appeared still pay VAT for silver.  So i went off to ETF land to lock in current prices.

[Gildeon]

I was also thinking about it but the VAT thing for Silver and Platinum put me off. I don't really get it because other sellers don't charge VAT if you don't receive physically the item.

And when you sell do they pay you VAT as well...? 

[Uksilverstackers]

4 hours ago, Gildeon said:

I was also thinking about it but the VAT thing for Silver and Platinum put me off. I don't really get it because other sellers don't charge VAT if you don't receive physically the item.

And when you sell do they pay you VAT as well...? 

It was VAT free up till a few months ago,  then HMRC got involved. I believe its all about where it is stored regarding the VAT. RM store in Wales,  all VAT free storage is off shore. Also the VAT will not be paid back, so I cant see much uptake on the Signature other than Gold if anyone has done their homework.

Check out Goldmoney and Bullionvault for Silver and Pt, with no VAT.

[Uksilverstackers]

Just following up on this after reading another thread regarding Bairds and VAT. It would appear that Bairds storage is VAT free. Their T&C’s do not state if the storage is offshore, however from their FAQ’s, at the bottom, it states you can view stored items giving 48hrs notice, for which I would imagine storage is not off shore...
 

If that is the case, that somewhat changes why RM are now charging VAT on purchases that are stored. Maybe Lawrence Chard may have some insight on that aspect.....

Update after posting: The VAT aspect could be due to the status of the Storage Warehouse. If Bairds are using Brinks Mat London (same as Bullion by Post) and maybe others, the Brinks Mat Secure Warehouse is probably classed as a Bonded Warehouse ie tax exempt.  Brinks are shipping stored goods all over the world, RM’s warehouse may not be classed as Bonded. More info needed on all that..... anyone 👍

 

https://www.bairdmint.com/help/faqs

How do I know my items are safe when vaulted with you? 

• Our premises are located on a secure industrial estate that is monitored twenty four hours a day and our buildings are protected by a variety of high-tech security features 

• We have a full and comprehensive insurance policy with Lloyds of London in order to cover the Precious Metal that is held on our premises 

• Holdings are individually packaged and can be boxed and sealed if requested

• Bar numbers are provided where applicable for additional peace of mind 

• We are happy for clients to view our premises and witness the initial storage procedure

• Clients may view their stored items subject only to giving us 48 hours notice

[Gildeon]

The links don't seem to be working for the Signature series today... 🙄

[Uksilverstackers]

22 minutes ago, Gildeon said:

The links don't seem to be working for the Signature series today... 🙄

Seem to be working ok now 👍

[Gildeon]

If I press "invest in silver" on this page the link is not working https://www.royalmint.com/invest/bullion/the-signature-range/signature-silver/

The same happens on the Gold and Platinum page.

Also the Signature range doesn't appear on the main Royal Mint Bullion page, if I am not wrong.

[Uksilverstackers]

Try this one. I think they updated the site recently.

RM Signature Silver

Dont forget RM charge VAT on Signature Silver and Platinum 😡

[Guest]

Thanks for the information @Uksilverstackers - I have looked at BullionVault and I’ve decided to include them into my long term investment plan 👍

As for the whole VAT thing - I’m still confused as to why BullionVault doesn’t include VAT even if you store in their London vault. @LawrenceChard, could you shed some light on why Royal Mint charges VAT on storage but BullionVault doesn’t even if you store in the London Vault (I appreciate that you’re busy at the moment with COVID-19).

One thing that I can think of is that VAT is included in the price, but they don’t mention it? Though I think you have to legally in the UK. Kinda like going to eBay and seeing an item with free P&P, but actually the P&P is included in the items price (I know as I use to do that when I sold items on eBay 😉).

Edit: I read on another post here that you only pay the VAT if you withdraw - but again, I’m not sure if that is if you withdraw funds from BullionVault or you want physical delivery of your bullion.

Many thanks,

C60

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, C60 said:

Thanks for the information @Uksilverstackers - I have looked at BullionVault and I’ve decided to include them into my long term investment plan 👍

As for the whole VAT thing - I’m still confused as to why BullionVault doesn’t include VAT even if you store in their London vault. @LawrenceChard, could you shed some light on why Royal Mint charges VAT on storage but BullionVault doesn’t even if you store in the London Vault (I appreciate that you’re busy at the moment with COVID-19).

One thing that I can think of is that VAT is included in the price, but they don’t mention it? Though I think you have to legally in the UK. Kinda like going to eBay and seeing an item with free P&P, but actually the P&P is included in the items price (I know as I use to do that when I sold items on eBay 😉).

Edit: I read on another post here that you only pay the VAT if you withdraw - but again, I’m not sure if that is if you withdraw funds from BullionVault or you want physical delivery of your bullion.

Many thanks,

C60

I'm not a VAT expert, and the HMRC website is atrociously unclear especially when it comes to precious metals.

We believe VAT is chargeable on storage in the UK, and EU, so how and why BV or others manage to avoid having to charge it, I do not know. It might be an idea to ask them directly.

I do know our storage charges are half those of the Royal Mint!

 

[LawrenceChard]

On 03/04/2020 at 12:06, C60 said:

Hello,

I was wondering what were peoples thoughts about the Royal Mint Signature Range for Au, Ag and Pt?

From what I have read, there is a minimum investment amount of £20 and it is stored, fully insured, in their vault, and you buy and/or sell to them when you want, 24/7.

While you don't have the bullion physically in your hand you still own the bullion (much like BBP or Chards storages) and that is the only disadvantage I can think of, given that you have the ability to buy bullion at a low price, especially if you have some "spare cash" to that you want to invest but it's not have enough to buy bullion coins or bars. Plus, I see it as a way of diversifying a portfolio and having a range of assets.

Thoughts and comments are welcomed 🙂

Thanks,

C60.

Whenever we have looked at the Royal Mint's bullion prices, they are always among the most expensive. I suspect many people think because it is a government (Treasury) owned business, it must be good and secure; possibly also being fooled by the fact you are "buying direct".

Perhaps it is similar to "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM".

We would be interested in knowing what the Mint's buy-back prices are, and have never yet found out. I think they will only tell you when you have an account with them, and have bought from them. By that time it's rather late to change your mind. The RM are certainly not very transparent.

[Uksilverstackers]

2 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

I'm not a VAT expert, and the HMRC website is atrociously unclear especially when it comes to precious metals.

We believe VAT is chargeable on storage in the UK, and EU, so how and why BV or others manage to avoid having to charge it, I do not know. It might be an idea to ask them directly.

I do know our storage charges are half those of the Royal Mint!

 

Its not the VAT on the actual storage charges. Its the VAT payable on say a Silver Bar if destined for storage, and the VAT is only payable if one takes delivery.

Some companies charge Silver VAT (RM) and some do not (Bairds, BBP)

My earlier post (above) surmised this maybe because a bonded warehouse or offshore is used for storage (ie Brinks Mat).

Chards website says their storage is in a vault within a vault, so does a client buying a silver bar for storage have to pay VAT on the purchase or is it VAT free whilst destined for storage and the VAT payable when requested for delivery?

 

[LawrenceChard]

1 minute ago, Uksilverstackers said:

Its not the VAT on the actual storage charges. Its the VAT payable on say a Silver Bar if destined for storage, and the VAT is only payable if one takes delivery.

Some companies charge Silver VAT (RM) and some do not (Bairds, BBP)

My earlier post (above) surmised this maybe because a bonded warehouse or offshore is used for storage (ie Brinks Mat).

Chards website says their storage is in a vault within a vault, so does a client buying a silver bar for storage have to pay VAT on the purchase or is it VAT free until delivered?

 

We are required to charge VAT at the point of sale, not on delivery, so yes we charge VAT on silver bars whether for delivery or storage. Storage means they are your bars, and we have effectively delivered them to your storage location. This is assuming we are using our Blackpool, UK, vault.

We do also offer silver bars, and most other stuff, for storage in a Guernsey vault. As Guernsey is not part of the UK or EU, it is not obliged to operate VAT, and chooses not to. Result: we can sell you bars without VAT providing they are for storage (or delivery) in Guernsey.

 

[Uksilverstackers]

Thank you Lawrence, very much appreciated. I knew you would be the person who would know for certain.
 

@ C60 - I think we can assume that is why RM charge VAT for storage as well, because their storage facility is at the Mint in Wales.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Uksilverstackers said:

Thank you Lawrence, very much appreciated. I knew you would be the person who would know for certain.
 

@ C60 - I think we can assume that is why RM charge VAT for storage as well, because their storage facility is at the Mint in Wales.

Yes, by the looks of it you’re right @Uksilverstackers. It depends on the site of storage and if it’s in the UK or not.

I was checking on BullionVault’s site and VAT is only charged if you want to take physical delivery of Ag or Pt (Au is of course exempt from VAT); VAT on storage isn’t included. 

[Murph]

Didn't baird's use to have an option or prices for storage in the UK or abroad a few years ago?  I haven't looked at them often since the updated their site and lowered the number of items sold.

[Seth]

On 03/04/2020 at 12:06, C60 said:

Hello,

I was wondering what were peoples thoughts about the Royal Mint Signature Range for Au, Ag and Pt?

From what I have read, there is a minimum investment amount of £20 and it is stored, fully insured, in their vault, and you buy and/or sell to them when you want, 24/7.

While you don't have the bullion physically in your hand you still own the bullion (much like BBP or Chards storages) and that is the only disadvantage I can think of, given that you have the ability to buy bullion at a low price, especially if you have some "spare cash" to that you want to invest but it's not have enough to buy bullion coins or bars. Plus, I see it as a way of diversifying a portfolio and having a range of assets.

Thoughts and comments are welcomed 🙂

Thanks,

C60.

After reading this post I decided out of curiosity to give the Royal Mint Signature Range a blast putting a couple of quid in every so often - nothing serious just the money that I used to spend on cigeretes before I decided to quit smoking, and all I can say is that it has reinforced my view that if you don't hold it, you don't own it, just try and click on the link posted by the person who sarted this thread and see what happens, it's been like that for close to 2 weeks now, truth be told what the link now leads to is actually an improvement until yesterday it lead you to a page with a phone number the opening times and a suggestion tha you make a purchase from the Royal Mint not the Royal Mint Bullion which is what/where the Royal Mint Signature Range is as the Roya Mint Bullion website was experiencing technical difficulies.  As far as buy back prices go, they're in line with every major U.K. based bullion dealer.  So my opinion after almost a month, two weeks of which I haven't been able to access my account, I wouldn't waste my urine on this company should it catch fire, and I strongly advise people to stay well clear of it, and stay well clear of ''buying'' precious metals'' that you don't get to take physical possession of - the Royal Mint when they launched this service promised that you would be able to buy and sell precious metals 24/7 and that has never been the case since the day I opened an account with them.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Seth said:

After reading this post I decided out of curiosity to give the Royal Mint Signature Range a blast putting a couple of quid in every so often - nothing serious just the money that I used to spend on cigeretes before I decided to quit smoking, and all I can say is that it has reinforced my view that if you don't hold it, you don't own it, just try and click on the link posted by the person who sarted this thread and see what happens, it's been like that for close to 2 weeks now, truth be told what the link now leads to is actually an improvement until yesterday it lead you to a page with a phone number the opening times and a suggestion tha you make a purchase from the Royal Mint not the Royal Mint Bullion which is what/where the Royal Mint Signature Range is as the Roya Mint Bullion website was experiencing technical difficulies.  As far as buy back prices go, they're in line with every major U.K. based bullion dealer.  So my opinion after almost a month, two weeks of which I haven't been able to access my account, I wouldn't waste my urine on this company should it catch fire, and I strongly advise people to stay well clear of it, and stay well clear of ''buying'' precious metals'' that you don't get to take physical possession of - the Royal Mint when they launched this service promised that you would be able to buy and sell precious metals 24/7 and that has never been the case since the day I opened an account with them.

Interesting that you haven't been able to access your account for nearly 6 weeks as I was able to create an account with the Royal Mint on Friday (25 April), and within an hour the account was approved and set up and I could transfer funds across.

Last night at around 10 pm BST, I tried to access the Royal Mint sites and they are both down for maintenance - however what they are doing is merging the two sites together so that you only need one URL to access the Royal Mint, not two.

I agree with what you say about being able to access 24/7/365, but as a Cybsersecurity Analyst, infrastructure and websites do require maintenance and so sometimes that 24/7/365 isn't achievable. I assume that the Royal Mint would claim that they would have an uptime of 99.99% (at least) instead. That same figure goes with internet banking - technically you should be able to access 24/7/365, but again, their infrastructure and mainframes requires maintenance, so there would be periods of downtime where you wouldn't be able to access your account and/or move money around.

 The saying "if you don't hold it, you don't own it" - would that apply to shares/stocks and EFTs as well? 

[Seth]

29 minutes ago, C60 said:

Interesting that you haven't been able to access your account for nearly 6 weeks as I was able to create an account with the Royal Mint on Friday (25 April), and within an hour the account was approved and set up and I could transfer funds across.

Last night at around 10 pm BST, I tried to access the Royal Mint sites and they are both down for maintenance - however what they are doing is merging the two sites together so that you only need one URL to access the Royal Mint, not two.

I agree with what you say about being able to access 24/7/365, but as a Cybsersecurity Analyst, infrastructure and websites do require maintenance and so sometimes that 24/7/365 isn't achievable. I assume that the Royal Mint would claim that they would have an uptime of 99.99% (at least) instead. That same figure goes with internet banking - technically you should be able to access 24/7/365, but again, their infrastructure and mainframes requires maintenance, so there would be periods of downtime where you wouldn't be able to access your account and/or move money around.

 The saying "if you don't hold it, you don't own it" - would that apply to shares/stocks and EFTs as well? 

I opened my account with them on the day that you started this thread, and for the last 2 weeks I have been unable to access my account not 6 weeks, before then access to my account was patchy at best as in for some reason most of the time when I wanted to long into my account I would have to go through all the hassle of resetting my password.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Seth said:

I opened my account with them on the day that you started this thread, and for the last 2 weeks I have been unable to access my account not 6 weeks, before then access to my account was patchy at best as in for some reason most of the time when I wanted to long into my account I would have to go through all the hassle of resetting my password.

 

Yeah, my bad - I misread some of the text; it’s amazing how ignoring a comma completely changes the context of a sentence when skim reading ! 😂

it also sounds like there is a configuration issue with your account and updating the password - something worth investigating with Royal Mint. Maybe use a password manager like lastpass (free for personal use and works on all iDevices too) to store and generate decent strength passwords so you can always ensure you’re entering in the correct password too every time. You’d be surprised how often people confuse the letter I (capital I) and l (lowercase L) in a password. 

[Pottedbeef]

On 07/04/2020 at 13:46, LawrenceChard said:

I'm not a VAT expert, and the HMRC website is atrociously unclear especially when it comes to precious metals.

We believe VAT is chargeable on storage in the UK, and EU, so how and why BV or others manage to avoid having to charge it, I do not know. It might be an idea to ask them directly.

I do know our storage charges are half those of the Royal Mint!

 

Might it possibly be stored in a bonded warehouse?

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Pottedbeef said:

Might it possibly be stored in a bonded warehouse?

What I’ve found out in regards to VAT and storage is this - VAT is paid on silver and platinum (not gold for obvious reasons), though places like BBP offer VAT-free silver storage where the metal is stored in a bonded warehouse and so no VAT is added, but as soon as you take physical delivery of it, you then pay the VAT on the silver.

Secondly, VAT is added to storage fees on storage within the UK, so if you have purchased storage with your bullion with BBP or another UK dealer like RoyalMint, then the VAT is added to the storage fee. Where BullionVault is different is that they charge a storage fee depending on how long you store your PM with them. No VAT is added to the storage fee if you select the London Vault as the London Bullion Market Association approved vault is VAT free (and is a bonded warehouse by the sounds of it).

So the crux of it all is if you decide to take physical delivery out of storage, then you are charged VAT if it’s silver or platinum. I guess that the “don’t hold it, don’t own it” saying kinda helps out if you don’t want to pay VAT in storage 😂

That’s my understanding of VAT and storage, but if anyone with experience has input, feel free to add it and correct me if I am wrong 👍

[LawrenceChard]

10 hours ago, C60 said:

What I’ve found out in regards to VAT and storage is this - VAT is paid on silver and platinum (not gold for obvious reasons), though places like BBP offer VAT-free silver storage where the metal is stored in a bonded warehouse and so no VAT is added, but as soon as you take physical delivery of it, you then pay the VAT on the silver.

Secondly, VAT is added to storage fees on storage within the UK, so if you have purchased storage with your bullion with BBP or another UK dealer like RoyalMint, then the VAT is added to the storage fee. Where BullionVault is different is that they charge a storage fee depending on how long you store your PM with them. No VAT is added to the storage fee if you select the London Vault as the London Bullion Market Association approved vault is VAT free (and is a bonded warehouse by the sounds of it).

So the crux of it all is if you decide to take physical delivery out of storage, then you are charged VAT if it’s silver or platinum. I guess that the “don’t hold it, don’t own it” saying kinda helps out if you don’t want to pay VAT in storage 😂

That’s my understanding of VAT and storage, but if anyone with experience has input, feel free to add it and correct me if I am wrong 👍

 

22 hours ago, Pottedbeef said:

Might it possibly be stored in a bonded warehouse?

Its' possible but I think "bonded warehouse" generally has a slightly different meaning and purpose.

Also bullion would need secure storage, typically in a vault or strongroom.

We have recently started looking more closely how different companies do or do not charge VAT on silver, platinum, or palladium which is stored without the buyer taking delivery. 

As already mentioned, HMRC rules are complicated, and often sound contradictory. It may be some time before we get definitive answers.

Some different HMRC rules apply to LBMA members, which makes it even more complicated.

Asking HMRC usually gets the response to look on the HMRC website, and I get the impression that most HMCR officers do not know or understand their own rules. Presumably someone in HMRC does know, but finding the "knowledgeable one" in never going to be easy.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

 

Its' possible but I think "bonded warehouse" generally has a slightly different meaning and purpose.

Also bullion would need secure storage, typically in a vault or strongroom.

We have recently started looking more closely how different companies do or do not charge VAT on silver, platinum, or palladium which is stored without the buyer taking delivery. 

As already mentioned, HMRC rules are complicated, and often sound contradictory. It may be some time before we get definitive answers.

Some different HMRC rules apply to LBMA members, which makes it even more complicated.

Asking HMRC usually gets the response to look on the HMRC website, and I get the impression that most HMCR officers do not know or understand their own rules. Presumably someone in HMRC does know, but finding the "knowledgeable one" in never going to be easy.

I only dealt with HMRC once - and I’ll never do it again! Funnily enough, my mum knows exactly how to deal with them; she even knows the tax system better than they do, so she gets them to refund her money back! 😂