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completed México Centenario Gold 50 Pesos


richatthecroft

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Love this coin, if anyone is a gold bug and wants one of the best and biggest gold coins out there, get this coin!

Puts things in perspective, I bought mine in 2017 for £1150!

Yikes on gold price!

Not to undermine this thread mind, this is a very good price for this coin right now.

Visit my website for all my Hand Poured Silver: http://backyardbullion.com

And check out my YouTube channel 

https://www.youtube.com/backyardbullion

 

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6 minutes ago, AgD said:

It's also not a re strike so @richatthecroft I would chuck another £50 on it 🤣

Yes- maybe I should!

Anyone wanting a restrike, I believe @LawrenceChard is still shipping and could help out:

https://www.chards.co.uk/mexico-gold-50-pesos-bullion-coin/3557

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On 25/03/2020 at 15:35, richatthecroft said:

Yes- maybe I should!

Anyone wanting a restrike, I believe @LawrenceChard is still shipping and could help out:

https://www.chards.co.uk/mexico-gold-50-pesos-bullion-coin/3557

We describe the 1947 as a restrike because it almost certainly is. 

The reported mintage, according to Krause was 309,000 pieces, but... 

"Note: During 1949 to 1972. a total of 3,975,654 pieces were restruck, most likely dated 1947." (Krause). 

This carries the strong implication that many of the restrikes were dated earlier than 1947. 

In my opinion, it is highly probable that earlier dates were restruck; certainly it would make sense to re-use existing dies. 

Unless the Mexican Mint can provide some clarification, it makes it impossible to state with certainty that earlier dates were original strikes, rather than restrikes. 

Does it matter? 

It would be nice to know which dates were used for restrikes, but ultimately, I don't think it makes much difference. 

Restrike Confusion? 

I am not sure what the members who mentioned restrikes are using the same definition as I do. 

Many people conflate "restrike" with "forgery", but the two things are not the same. 

There is a long tradition of mints producing and issuing genuine, official restrikes of coins, so clearly a restrike is not the same as a forgery. 

What causes confusion though, is that many dealers, or other re-sellers, often describe forgeries and replicas as "restrikes". This is euphemistic, dishonest, and probably fraudulent. 

An unofficial restrike should not be called a restrike, it should be called a forgery, counterfeit, copy, fake, or some other word which clearly, unambiguously, and accurately describes it. 

I have kept this brief (for me), but anyone interested in reading more can look at the following page on our old 24carat.co.uk website. Unfortunately, we did not use to include a publication date on our old pages, so the page could have been created as early as 1998, but more likely around 2000: 

https://24carat.co.uk/frame.php?url=restrikes.html 
 

TSF Members can always let me know if they disagree. 

B.T.W. About a month or so ago, we were offering Mexican gold 50 pesos for sale at 1% premium, date our choice, because we had accumulated excess stocks. 

Chards

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On 27/03/2020 at 16:15, LawrenceChard said:

We describe the 1947 as a restrike because it almost certainly is. 

The reported mintage, according to Krause was 309,000 pieces, but... 

"Note: During 1949 to 1972. a total of 3,975,654 pieces were restruck, most likely dated 1947." (Krause). 

This carries the strong implication that many of the restrikes were dated earlier than 1947. 

In my opinion, it is highly probable that earlier dates were restruck; certainly it would make sense to re-use existing dies. 

I think it’s unlikely that the Restike coins have any other date than 1947- according to the 2015 Whitman Encyclopaedia of Mexican Money, Volume 2. Don & Lois Bailey page 75 (Don Bailey was a respected commentator of Mexican coinage).  

They state the following of the 1947 year date, and make no mention that any other dates were restrikes, they do make mention that the restrikes dated 1947 are ‘indistinguishable’ from the original 309,000 actually known to have been struck in 1947 :

2E837E41-4D2C-4744-BBC4-29C5764E9113.thumb.jpeg.1da888a81a1b939e1343713df943f992.jpeg

And here are the Mintage figures of the Centenario:

2C33B1F3-4DCD-4B6F-AD52-E76CD4EF40DE.thumb.jpeg.3363e807f8aa62043935998cb367ff56.jpeg

 

 

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2 hours ago, richatthecroft said:

I think it’s unlikely that the Restike coins have any other date than 1947- according to the 2015 Whitman Encyclopaedia of Mexican Money, Volume 2. Don & Lois Bailey page 75 (Don Bailey was a respected commentator of Mexican coinage).  

They state the following of the 1947 year date, and make no mention that any other dates were restrikes, they do make mention that the restrikes dated 1947 are ‘indistinguishable’ from the original 309,000 actually known to have been struck in 1947 :

And here are the Mintage figures of the Centenario:

 

Don Bailey does not state that 1947 was the only date restruck, so Whitman does not negate the Krause comment.

I still think that it is highly likely that some other dates were restruck, even if this was simply a case of using up redundant dies, which is common practice with most mints each new year.

Most mintage figures are (or were) the number of coins produced in the year, not the number of coins bearing that date.

It is unlikely that we will ever know, unless the Mexican Mint kept detailed records and are prepared to share them.

Crucially, though, I don't think it matters much. We could debate the probabilities, but we could never reach any firm conclusion.

I don't have any criticism of your description of the coin for sale.

My original posting here was to clarify the distinction between "restrike", and the frequent euphemistic uses of the word (often on ebay).

Chards

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On 29/03/2020 at 16:36, LawrenceChard said:

My original posting here was to clarify the distinction between "restrike", and the frequent euphemistic uses of the word (often on ebay).

Thanks- I did understand the premise of your original post- but for me, being very new to the world of coin collecting this discussion opens up lots of questions- and concerns!  I'm sure all of which you have answered before but to give me some reassurance perhaps I might develop the discussion further.

On 29/03/2020 at 16:36, LawrenceChard said:

Don Bailey does not state that 1947 was the only date restruck, so Whitman does not negate the Krause comment.

 

You're right, the Whitman publication doesn't negate the Krause comment- Krause doesn't get referenced at all in the Whitman book! (I haven't a clue what Krause actually states- I don't have sight of a copy),  but given that the Whitman series of books are narrowed into discussion of purely Mexican coinage, then then isn't it a more reliable resource?  As such it makes only a reference to the 1947 Restrikes being struck right up until the 2000's- and Whitman doesn't append by stating that perhaps other dates might have been used to Restrike.  

On 29/03/2020 at 16:36, LawrenceChard said:

Most mintage figures are (or were) the number of coins produced in the year, not the number of coins bearing that date.

It is unlikely that we will ever know, unless the Mexican Mint kept detailed records and are prepared to share them.

It might well be the case that other dates were  restruck- and indeed, we'll never know-  unless like you say, detailed records are shared.

But then this raises the point where do the mintage figures come from- that we all rely on as collectors?  

Not just in the case of the Centenario, but broadening this question out to all coinage from all Mints...

On 29/03/2020 at 16:36, LawrenceChard said:

Crucially, though, I don't think it matters much. We could debate the probabilities, but we could never reach any firm conclusion.

True, like you say, we might never reach firm conclusions but for me, as a collector it does matter- the question remains- IF certain coins,  such as the Centenario or another coin which was Restruck in the millions - the French 20 Francs Rooster (1907 through 1914 widely accepted as the dates that were restruck on top of the contemporary produced coins)- and there are questions surrounding IF other year date dies were used to Restrike the coin- then doesn't this throw into question why coin collectors pay/ dealers sell at premiums that are loaded onto certain year dates/ groups of year dates? 

I guess its buyer beware- or having the skill and judgement in terms of appraising the coin you intend to buy. Restrikes are often looked down upon or at least, considered to be worth much less premium than those produced contemporaneously.  

On a brighter note, Restrike/ Original year date coins are often like cheese and chalk:

64663179-15F1-48D4-A80C-3C18DD0A938A.thumb.jpeg.4e95ef2a6d57112a74810cdd628358c0.jpeg

C194457F-EF59-4969-8B1F-628F999E04C7.thumb.jpeg.c63c19222f6df953756b3590bc26d077.jpeg

 

 

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1 hour ago, richatthecroft said:

Thanks- I did understand the premise of your original post- but for me, being very new to the world of coin collecting this discussion opens up lots of questions- and concerns!  I'm sure all of which you have answered before but to give me some reassurance perhaps I might develop the discussion further.

You're right, the Whitman publication doesn't negate the Krause comment- Krause doesn't get referenced at all in the Whitman book! (I haven't a clue what Krause actually states- I don't have sight of a copy),  but given that the Whitman series of books are narrowed into discussion of purely Mexican coinage, then then isn't it a more reliable resource?  As such it makes only a reference to the 1947 Restrikes being struck right up until the 2000's- and Whitman doesn't append by stating that perhaps other dates might have been used to Restrike.  

 

Here is a rough, quick, photo of my nearest Krause:

Krause Re: Mexico Gold 50 Pesos

It might well be the case that other dates were  restruck- and indeed, we'll never know-  unless like you say, detailed records are shared.

But then this raises the point where do the mintage figures come from- that we all rely on as collectors?  

Not just in the case of the Centenario, but broadening this question out to all coinage from all Mints...

From Mint records, and the work of some historical / numismatic scholars and researchers.

Some modern catalogues have collected data from many mints, and other sources.

If you went back much before 1960, you would discover that most of this information was not readily available. Thank all the modern cataloguers of the last century for collating so much information.

Without any doubt, some mints are better at publishing or releasing information than others.

The British Royal Mint has taken in recent years to refusing to disclose mintae figures for bullion coins.

True, like you say, we might never reach firm conclusions but for me, as a collector it does matter- the question remains- IF certain coins,  such as the Centenario or another coin which was Restruck in the millions - the French 20 Francs Rooster (1907 through 1914 widely accepted as the dates that were restruck on top of the contemporary produced coins)- and there are questions surrounding IF other year date dies were used to Restrike the coin- then doesn't this throw into question why coin collectors pay/ dealers sell at premiums that are loaded onto certain year dates/ groups of year dates? 

Try to avoid giving too much importance to mintage figures.

When I said "I don't think it matters much", I was speaking as a numismatist.

I guess its buyer beware- or having the skill and judgement in terms of appraising the coin you intend to buy. Restrikes are often looked down upon or at least, considered to be worth much less premium than those produced contemporaneously.  

Some restrikes will be rarer, and possibly more expensive or valuable than the originals.

This Wikipedia page is worth reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Theresa_thaler

If you get chance to look at any decent catalogue of Roman Coins, or British hammered coins, they may leave you in awe of the historical research which has been done by earlier scholars. We can all reap the benefit of this for a modest financial outlay.

A timeless piece of advice might well be: "Before you buy a coin, buy a book about coins".

Nowadays, there is much free information online, you just need to be careful which sites you rely on and trust.

 

 

 

 

Chards

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57 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

BTW, I like your Avatar. wonder where it came from?

https://24carat.co.uk/frame.php?url=2010pound.php

Was a screenshot from a google search years back when I first started on YouTube the picture on your site could have been the source of the screenshot 

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On 27/03/2020 at 16:15, LawrenceChard said:

There is a long tradition of mints producing and issuing genuine, official restrikes of coins, so clearly a restrike is not the same as a forgery. 

@LawrenceChard, thanks very much for clarifying the confusion which some forum members have between official restrikes and forgeries. There’s no real reason why official restrikes should be looked down upon judged by the sheer popularity of my Marianne Rooster restrike.

 

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