How to clean Gold

[RoslandGold]

Hello guys, since we had a thread where a member asked if grading makes sense, i told him to clean the coin before. 

Since noone knew the trick with aluminium foil, salt and water, i promised to show a video about that.

I used 2 very damaged liberty 2017 1 oz gold coins. The first coin had a really huge red dot which looked like a hole. 

The second one was scratched horrible. Im not an expert in creating videos and i made it at home with my mobile phone, but i am sure you will like the result.

Most of the time scratched and red dotted coins (as BU) get PR69-70 DCAM gradings (even when they are not PROOF).

The video can be found on https://www.rosland.link/videos/gold-oxidation-entfernen/ because it's too big to post it n the forum. (500mb~).

Attached is the picture BEFORE cleaning.

 

and this was after cleaning.. The very big red dot(s) are almost not visible anymore. It may take 1-2 more attempts until get them removed by 100%. The other coin looks great.

There are no more scratches on the coins. It's just from the camera/salt which need be cleaned.

 

Edit: If the red dots are not fully removed, you can also use a very hot lighter. Gold has a diferrent melt temperature and will not be affected at all. The red dots will be burned out and you wont see any damaged spots.

[Sovstacker]

 Do not clean your coins under any circumstances!

[RoslandGold]

4 minutes ago, Sovstacker said:

 Do not clean your coins under any circumstances!

Why? Those were damaged coins, they will be melted anyway. But there is nothing wrong by cleaning coins?

 

[TheGeneral]

5 minutes ago, Sovstacker said:

 Do not clean your coins under any circumstances!

Can you expand on this please? 

[Pete]

Sharing info like coin cleaning is very useful so thanks for this post.
Some will argue of course that you should never clean coins but let's be honest, if you have a regular bullion coin that is only ever worth its melt value, why not ?

I experimented on some cheap silver coins that were very badly milk spotted and milk stained.
I tried various dips including eZest without any joy.
Finally I used my Dremel with a small felt polishing pad and jeweller's rouge and restored them beautifully without any fine lines or scratches visible.
Indeed I managed to polish out some fine scratches.
Based on minimum wage rates ( if I was charging time to myself ) however, I can advise that it is not cost effective !

Question to forum members - I understand that some renowned coin graders can restore coins to give them a higher grade.
Anyone actually know how they do this ?
Are they perhaps using lasers or other technologies that most of us couldn't afford ?

 

[trp]

That’s a nifty trick, though I don’t think I’d do it to my own coins...not that I don’t trust it, just that I always faff things like that up! Good to know though. Also have to add, I like pristine coins but I also love ones that have some age wear on them. 

[RoslandGold]

7 minutes ago, Pete said:

Sharing info like coin cleaning is very useful so thanks for this post.
Some will argue of course that you should never clean coins but let's be honest, if you have a regular bullion coin that is only ever worth its melt value, why not ?

I experimented on some cheap silver coins that were very badly milk spotted and milk stained.
I tried various dips including eZest without any joy.
Finally I used my Dremel with a small felt polishing pad and jeweller's rouge and restored them beautifully without any fine lines or scratches visible.
Indeed I managed to polish out some fine scratches.
Based on minimum wage rates ( if I was charging time to myself ) however, I can advise that it is not cost effective !

Question to forum members - I understand that some renowned coin graders can restore coins to give them a higher grade.
Anyone actually know how they do this ?
Are they perhaps using lasers or other technologies that most of us couldn't afford ?

 

Since i restore alot coins by PCGS and take high resolution photos before and after, it looks like that they just clean it like i did in the video. Maybe they use some special cleaner, but i found some very small scratches after restoring by pcgs very often.

In 50% of the cases, restore increases the grade by at least 1 grading level.

69 to 70 is "usually" not possible. After doing the salt-alumium bath (ms69) and sending them back to pcgs again, i usually get MS70.

Very often i get PR instead of MS after using the trick.

 

Edit: Actually all of the coins never got red dots again after cleaning. After they are slabbed by PCGS and NGC they always keep the same quality. 

 

[JunkBond]

29 minutes ago, Sovstacker said:

 Do not clean your coins under any circumstances!

I know a member on here that cleaned some modern proofs and got good grades at NGC after.

[Pete]

1 minute ago, trp said:

That’s a nifty trick, though I don’t think I’d do it to my own coins...not that I don’t trust it, just that I always faff things like that up! Good to know though. Also have to add, I like pristine coins but I also love ones that have some age wear on them. 

Those that I cleaned looked as if they had been left on the bottom of the sea with permanent salt baked on to them.
If I was in the trade I would not have offered melt value as they were so bad.
Now they look pristine.
The trick is to use jeweller's rouge which is a block of what looks like a red wax ( I also used the white version which is supposedly more of an abrasive )
You also need a soft pad so as to avoid any mechanical damage to the coin surface and set a speed that you are comfortable using.

[Xander]

I wouldn't clean coins.

I submitted two gold sovs for grading, they were returned, " cleaned" which meant, according to the grader, they were only worth melt value.

[Pete]

1 minute ago, Xander said:

I wouldn't clean coins.

I submitted two gold sovs for grading, they were returned, " cleaned" which meant, according to the grader, they were only worth melt value.

Yes - if you are grading coins then don't clean them as most people would by using metal polish.
This leaves a thin film / sheen which can be picked up by someone in the know.
I cleaned some silver coins using fine chrome polish and also "Peek" silver polish.
They looked good but then I was able to immediately spot there was a different appearance compared to an uncleaned coin.
 

[RoslandGold]

3 minutes ago, Xander said:

I wouldn't clean coins.

I submitted two gold sovs for grading, they were returned, " cleaned" which meant, according to the grader, they were only worth melt value.

Yes. Because you destroyed the outer layer by polishing the coin. If you do it like i did in the video nothing can and will happen to the coin

[Sovstacker]

Don't clean anything you are not willing to ruin. There are many ways to damage gold coins in the cleaning process.

[Pete]

11 minutes ago, RoslandGold said:

Since i restore alot coins by PCGS and take high resolution photos before and after, it looks like that they just clean it like i did in the video. Maybe they use some special cleaner, but i found some very small scratches after restoring by pcgs very often.

In 50% of the cases, restore increases the grade by at least 1 grading level.

69 to 70 is "usually" not possible. After doing the salt-alumium bath (ms69) and sending them back to pcgs again, i usually get MS70.

Very often i get PR instead of MS after using the trick.

 

Edit: Actually all of the coins never got red dots again after cleaning. After they are slabbed by PCGS and NGC they always keep the same quality. 

 

I've used the aluminium baking soda cleaning method to remove black oxide from sterling silver.
Never tried on gold preferring an ultrasonic bath.
Solvents I've experimented with include ethanol, methanol, isopropyl alcohol, ammonia, citric acid, pure acetone.
For gold I would use concentrated nitric acid if I had any.

[RoslandGold]

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

I've used the aluminium baking soda cleaning method to remove black oxide from sterling silver.
Never tried on gold preferring an ultrasonic bath.
Solvents I've experimented with include ethanol, methanol, isopropyl alcohol, ammonia, citric acid, pure acetone.
For gold I would use concentrated nitric acid if I had any.

baking soda  destroyed our coins, yes. Its too aggressive.

 

[kimchi]

4 minutes ago, JunkBond said:

I know a member on here that cleaned some modern proofs and got good grades at NGC after.

If you 'clean' properly it's no different to what NGC do afaik. I wouldn't/couldn't myself but know people who do and get great results.

Also, modern proofs (unless there is something absolutely obvious at a loupe at x6+) can of course be de-slabbed and resubmitted and may make a higher grade anyway.

One of the 'vagaries' of grading modern coins (think unless a clear 70 it's a nonsense myself).

[trp]

11 minutes ago, Pete said:

Those that I cleaned looked as if they had been left on the bottom of the sea with permanent salt baked on to them.
If I was in the trade I would not have offered melt value as they were so bad.
Now they look pristine.
The trick is to use jeweller's rouge which is a block of what looks like a red wax ( I also used the white version which is supposedly more of an abrasive )
You also need a soft pad so as to avoid any mechanical damage to the coin surface and set a speed that you are comfortable using.

Cheers Pete. I’ll have to give that ago. I like playing with the Dremel too, never crossed my mind to use it (I think it’s because my Mrs almost lost a finger last time it was in my capable hands!) 

[JunkBond]

1 minute ago, kimchi said:

If you 'clean' properly it's no different to what NGC do afaik.

Exactly, NCS are "cleaning" coins all day long.

[Xander]

4 minutes ago, RoslandGold said:

Yes. Because you destroyed the outer layer by polishing the coin. If you do it like i did in the video nothing can and will happen to the coin

I didn't clean them and they looked EF, even under the loupe,  NGC decided they were cleaned. That's why I said I wouldn't clean coins. As far as I know cleaning devalues the coin when it comes to serious numismatic collectors. 

I was fortunate though, the dealer gave me a refund.

[Pete]

4 minutes ago, trp said:

Cheers Pete. I’ll have to give that ago. I like playing with the Dremel too, never crossed my mind to use it (I think it’s because my Mrs almost lost a finger last time it was in my capable hands!) 

I bought a lifetime supply of Dremel pads from eBay that came from China.
Cost per 100 was about what you pay for 5 in the UK shops.

 

[trp]

12 minutes ago, Pete said:

I bought a lifetime supply of Dremel pads from eBay that came from China.
Cost per 100 was about what you pay for 5 in the UK shops.

 

I need me some of them! 

[Xander]

4 minutes ago, trp said:

I need me some of them! 

I heard Brillo pads work a treat.

[Pete]

2 hours ago, Xander said:

I heard Brillo pads work a treat.

Guaranteed to get you scrap value afterwards but nice and shiny with maybe a rainbow patina in glancing sunlight 😂

[Pipers]

NGC, PCGS and the others offer a cleaning service, f-cking hell.  They will charge for anything that can get there more money for.  How about a first strike, oh no they all ready do that, even though the first minted coins are at the bottom of the bucket at the mint not the top!!!  

[Pipers]

3 hours ago, kimchi said:

If you 'clean' properly it's no different to what NGC do afaik. I wouldn't/couldn't myself but know people who do and get great results.

Also, modern proofs (unless there is something absolutely obvious at a loupe at x6+) can of course be de-slabbed and resubmitted and may make a higher grade anyway.

One of the 'vagaries' of grading modern coins (think unless a clear 70 it's a nonsense myself).

Imo the cost of  modern slabbed coins is not worth it in most cases.  Then you get caught in the number trap it's a 69 or a 70 on a new coin.