Jump to content
  • The above Banner is a Sponsored Banner.

    Upgrade to Premium Membership to remove this Banner & All Google Ads. For full list of Premium Member benefits Click HERE.

  • Join The Silver Forum

    The Silver Forum is one of the largest and best loved silver and gold precious metals forums in the world, established since 2014. Join today for FREE! Browse the sponsor's topics (hidden to guests) for special deals and offers, check out the bargains in the members trade section and join in with our community reacting and commenting on topic posts. If you have any questions whatsoever about precious metals collecting and investing please join and start a topic and we will be here to help with our knowledge :) happy stacking/collecting. 21,000+ forum members and 1 million+ forum posts. For the latest up to date stats please see the stats in the right sidebar when browsing from desktop. Sign up for FREE to view the forum with reduced ads. 

Viking-Saxon gold 'Stolen'


KDave

Recommended Posts

Two chaps find some old coins in a field and decide that half of their good fortune is too much to part with. They are caught, tried and sentenced to 10 years and 8.5 years in jail.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-anglosaxon/uk-metal-detectorists-who-hid-saxon-haul-jailed-for-nearly-20-years-idUKKBN1XW1UL

Is the sentence not a bit harsh?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 254
  • Created
  • Last Reply
5 minutes ago, KDave said:

Two chaps find some old coins in a field and decide that half of their good fortune is too much to part with. They are caught, tried and sentenced to 10 years and 8.5 years in jail.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-anglosaxon/uk-metal-detectorists-who-hid-saxon-haul-jailed-for-nearly-20-years-idUKKBN1XW1UL

Is the sentence not a bit harsh?

They won't serve anywhere near that amount of time after good behaviour but it's meant to be a deterrent to others by showing that amount of time sentenced. Probably two years at the most.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I remember this story when it first broke a while ago and now they've been tried and sentenced. I got the impression it wasn't just the stolen value of the coins but the fact that historians were saying this hoard has the potential to re-write the history books.

Profile picture with thanks to Carl Vernon

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If i were the landowner i would be a bit racked off if i discovered coins of great value had been thieved. 

This pair could have become wealthy and would have been famous - now they are going to go down in history as crooks.

The sentence is excessive, but there again the coins are allegedly worth £millions. These finds will only very occasionally be made - they are history making. They amount to national treasures. If this pair got 6 months or even a couple of years, out in 1 year for good behaviour then if you are looking at important coins, a great many would chance it and nick the lot. 

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Notafront4adragon said:

If two chaps found some gold in your attic or garden and then didn't tell you, you'd consider it stealing. 

Yeah the sentence is a bit steep but maybe don't steal and attempt to defraud others? 

I would consider it a theft if I had put the gold there. If the gold was someone elses that happened to be in my attic, its not me being robbed is it. The person being robbed in this case is about 1000+ years dead if the historians are correct.

The coins were in the ground for 1000 years, no one knew about them until these guys went out of their way to look. Now they are going to jail for potentially best part of a decade for what amounts to a lottery win they didn't want to share, nor should have to share but for arbitrary law. 

On the other hand, a drink driver killed two people here recently and will be out in 6 years. Go figure.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The elites have always put a greater emphasis on the crime of theft( unless it's the bankers in the city) As stated before they are not really concerned with the great unwashed assaulting, stabbing and killing each other. (Again, unless it is one of their own) 

This does have historical context however and ultimately they were a bit thick as could have gained more by received the  finders fee which is 50% of the estimated value, more than they would get on the black market. They should have stabbed a peasant and hidden the bounty in their cavities for 20 years, no one a would have ever looked there. 

“Nowadays people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.” Oscillate Wildly

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, KDave said:

I would consider it a theft if I had put the gold there. If the gold was someone elses that happened to be in my attic, its not me being robbed is it. The person being robbed in this case is about 1000+ years dead if the historians are correct.

The coins were in the ground for 1000 years, no one knew about them until these guys went out of their way to look. Now they are going to jail for potentially best part of a decade for what amounts to a lottery win they didn't want to share, nor should have to share but for arbitrary law. 

On the other hand, a drink driver killed two people here recently and will be out in 6 years. Go figure.  

Ok I'll just take the bricks from your house cause you didn't put them there. Or the lead in your pipes.  

It's the landowners property like mineral rights. They are thieves, it's pretty open and shut. They didn't tell the land owner and then attempted to sell them illicitly as they knew they were in the wrong. 

Further they got what their greed deserved. If they had been honest they still would of been rich enough. They could probably even done some media enjoy some fame. 

It's wierd that people think gold is finders keepers. That's not how the law works?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes you are right, I will agree with the landowner side of things. If you get permission to go looking around from the landowner, then a contract needs to be drawn up as to what happens to findings, the standing contract is 50/50 on half of the value under law. In that context I agree it is stealing from the landowner. My issue is the state wanting the other half of it for no good reason, then putting people in jail for longer than a paedophile or diminished responsibility murderer for not declaring the find. Both law and sentence here are unreasonable to the extreme.

The house analogy is an example of stealing, but where then do you need to give me 25% of the brick proceeds and the other 50% to the government. You are seeing the 25%/25% finder/landowner split as the problem, where as I am seeing the 50% as the issue, and the jail time as the issue.

Sure they are greedy and dishonest but 10 years and 8.5 years? Show me parliamentary expenses for 2019 and I will show you greed and dishonesty, just saying. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not sure where the idea of 50% has come from the state doesn't keep 50%. It can keep it all. You have no right over treasure as the finder but you almost always get paid the full valuation. Perhaps because those that found treasure previously split the reward with the land owners? 

The process is it's offered to museums etc and you get the value as a reward or if no museums want to bid then you keep it. If it's less than 300yrs old you get to keep it right away. Unless you're in Scotland. 

With this case they didn't even have permission from the landowner and they effectively stole something important from the nation, our heritage, by attempting to sell it illegally hence the strong sentence. 

Not sure if the sentence is excessive or rather the other crimes you mention are too light. I do know the law is very concerned with protecting property.

Perhaps we should all just renounce property and we can all share all resources equally? Didn't think so. So we'll have to stick to the law for now. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Notafront4adragon said:

Not sure where the idea of 50% has come from the state doesn't keep 50%. It can keep it all. You have no right over treasure as the finder but you almost always get paid the full valuation. Perhaps because those that found treasure previously split the reward with the land owners? 

The process is it's offered to museums etc and you get the value as a reward or if no museums want to bid then you keep it. If it's less than 300yrs old you get to keep it right away. Unless you're in Scotland. 

With this case they didn't even have permission from the landowner and they effectively stole something important from the nation, our heritage, by attempting to sell it illegally hence the strong sentence. 

Not sure if the sentence is excessive or rather the other crimes you mention are too light. I do know the law is very concerned with protecting property.

Perhaps we should all just renounce property and we can all share all resources equally? Didn't think so. So we'll have to stick to the law for now. 

 

No I think the sentences are to long or there must of been more here than what has been reported.  I have just read the sky news article and it seems the gang and there is 4 of them are still hiding a substantial amount of the hoard or they have already sold it.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hope I’m not the odd one out here but I love seeing and learning about these archeological exhibits in the British Museum. It’s not their monetary value that interests me but their historical value. The sentences need to be excessive to put people off selling history. It’s a magnificent find.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven’t read all about it but but from what I heard on the tv they didn’t tell the farmer they were detecting there it’s theft of £1.5m.     Also I’m not sure if they have said where the discovery was made so if there is any more whey don’t know where it’s is and thirdly they will always have the question what have they found that hidden somewhere that no one knows about

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, KDave said:

Two chaps find some old coins in a field and decide that half of their good fortune is too much to part with. They are caught, tried and sentenced to 10 years and 8.5 years in jail.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-anglosaxon/uk-metal-detectorists-who-hid-saxon-haul-jailed-for-nearly-20-years-idUKKBN1XW1UL

Is the sentence not a bit harsh?

Very harsh in my view.

My simplistic take on the law is that the punishment for a crime should reflect the damage done to others. In this instance, the damage done to any living soul is zero.

You can argue that the landowner was the victim, but they were previously oblivious to the goodies buried on their land.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Notafront4adragon said:

With this case they didn't even have permission from the landowner and they effectively stole something important from the nation, our heritage, by attempting to sell it illegally hence the strong sentence. 

Not sure if the sentence is excessive or rather the other crimes you mention are too light. I do know the law is very concerned with protecting property.

 

7 hours ago, Serendipity said:

I hope I’m not the odd one out here but I love seeing and learning about these archeological exhibits in the British Museum. It’s not their monetary value that interests me but their historical value. The sentences need to be excessive to put people off selling history. It’s a magnificent find.

I love museums, numismatic displays especially, yet I find the sentence here disgusting. The courts are saying its less of a problem to kill people or touch kids than to take something that no one knew was there in the first place. We each have a different hierarchy when it comes to morality I think and will just have to disagree. My main take away from this is a reaffirmation that the UK justice system is broken and perhaps that it is a reflection of society. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Farmer is not the Land Owner.

Tho get to these sentences you would have to have a knowledge of tariffs.   

And yes,  this is a big statement to anyone who finds a hoard A+B=C + press exposure or melt into bars.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, KDave said:

 

I love museums, numismatic displays especially, yet I find the sentence here disgusting. The courts are saying its less of a problem to kill people or touch kids than to take something that no one knew was there in the first place. We each have a different hierarchy when it comes to morality I think and will just have to disagree. My main take away from this is a reaffirmation that the UK justice system is broken and perhaps that it is a reflection of society. 

I'm not saying it's right that potentially the courts would hand out a low sentence for serious crimes involving someone dying, I too have questioned sentences. 

Perhaps their actions do reflect our broken society; extreme greed, individualism and stealing from others. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Notafront4adragon said:

I'm not saying it's right that potentially the courts would hand out a low sentence for serious crimes involving someone dying, I too have questioned sentences. 

Perhaps their actions do reflect our broken society; extreme greed, individualism and stealing from others. 

Or maybe just stupidity.

In any respect 2 years in jail with hardened criminals would be awful for nearly every man or woman.

These men are not hardened criminals and seemingly just made a dumb decision in the moment because it was so damn unlikely a find. As such Id imagine 2 years of jail would be a terrible enough punishment for them and 8 years does not protect anyone or serve the public in anyway. People really love to play holier than thou (and I dont mean you @Notafront4adragon) in these instances because it makes them feel good but the reality is there should better ways to deal with these men and their stupidity, ways that benefit society and do not cost the tax payer further.

In terms of the ‘missing’ coins the men will get charged with proceeds of crime and be forced to pay a significant sum of money or lose their eligibility for early release. They will then serve their full term AND then still have to pay it back.

It may be this is why they got a heavier sentence also, to try to pressure them into admitting were the remaining coins are and hopefully recover them. If they have a heavy POC bill the best way to pay it back is clearly to hand over as many coins as possible, if they have them then the courts know the threat of no early release and another 4-5 years of prison time for failing to do so will likely force them to admit the coins whereabouts. Especially as they will have to pay anyways as well as serving their time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The act of keeping quiet about this reflects the perverse incentives that the law has generated first, the character of the people finding it second in my view. 

There are no incentives to handing in the find. Your options are to lose most of its value vs keeping it and selling it on the quiet at risk, or melt the lot down. The fact that people feel the need to keep quiet about a find is a symptom the law is against nature. The fact someone would consider melting down 1000+ year history is a symptom the law is very wrong. The law needs to incentivise people coming forward with the finds; cracking down like this does no favours for our future heritage, museums, the legal system, ect. How much history has been lost already because of this law I wonder.

We already know people are a bit useless and corrupt, its part of human nature, cracking down on it just makes people think harder about how to get away with it.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this law was created to stop the nighthawk who ransacked historical places and finds of their value in midnight attacks...the pirates of the metal detecting world....the fact is mainly money and theft....the train robes got hefty sentences for the money and deterant...im all for it..I have the problem with pedos getting 5 years when their victim gets life...I have family with land in England and I'd still come,forward with what I found...it's the least you can do...it's not going to make you have to look over your shoulder for the rest of your life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Cookies & terms of service

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. By continuing to use this site you consent to the use of cookies and to our Privacy Policy & Terms of Use