Advice from the Forum required in terms of what to do next in terms of a problem with a coin bought from a dealer. And also to report a good Customer Service & outcome from another dealer.

[richatthecroft]

Long Post but if you do get down to the bottom of it and wish to comment or make a suggestion- it would be very much appreciated. Thank you

To contextualise this Thread- rightly or wrongly, I have recently made a decision to reconfigure my stack of Gold coins.  It also explains my cryptic 'today I received post'- Wednesday 13th November:  

So, I felt that I was top heavy in terms of Proof Gold coins and Premium Bullion,  I sold some coins and traded some, and added some capital and thought I would be satisfied picking up bullion Sovereigns for increased weight.  

Then a crisis of confidence unfolded, I thought about why I buy PM's and realised it was to satisfy not only the investor side in me, but also the collector within. 

To this end, I scrapped the bullion Sovereign idea, and bought some premium Mexico Pesos-  nice to hold, a bit different, some history and satisfies both the stacker (increased weight) and collector side in me (nice coins).   And also compliments my love of modern Mexican Gold & Silver Libertads.

Following on from the Mexican pesos, and a bit of further research, I took the decision to buy some Chilean Pesos- nice coins.  

I managed to source three Chilean Gold coins- a 100, 50 Pesos and 20 Pesos- the 100 Pesos at a German dealer- at an enticing +2% of Spot (I'm still in the process of getting some redress, so won't name just yet and need some advice) and the 50 & 20 Pesos +17.6% above Spot with ATS Bullion- collectively three ran out at a +9% Premium above Spot-(about the same price equivalent as 1/4oz Britannia at HGM)- having located these 3 coins, at a collective decent price and purchased them- I decided to start to look around for Peruvian Gold- there's a theme developing here...

So, to start- ATS Bullion- and good Customer Service.  

Here's what I bought from ATS at a 17.6% Premium:  

 

Nowt wrong with them except your rubbish photography Rich, I hear you shout...but a close up of the Obverse of the 50 Pesos reveals this:

I contacted ATS by telephone, sent some photo's- and there was an immediate offer of a refund- but I elected to make an offer to them- to not receive the refund and pay Spot for a Gold Peruvian 10 Soles coin they had in stock- priced up at a massive +40% premium- a deal I would be happy to accept- thus owning two South American Coins I would be happy with and in the meantime- having a 3rd 'gap filler' Chilean 50 Pesos- and collectively knocking down the premium on three coins from ATS- the 50 Pesos, 20 Pesos & now the 10 Soles to +14% from the +17.6% paid for the Pesos.  They took the offer- I was happy- Happy Days...  

Adding this 'deal' to the 100 Pesos from the German dealer- I was now looking at reducing the overall premium on 4 coins- 3 of them which I thought I was going to be happy with, and a 'gap filler' to just over 7.5% collectively...satisfied.

Now for the Horror Show- the date is the 13th after all- and any advice from people here would be appreciated...

So, here's what arrived on the doormat this morning from the German dealer:

 

Two day shipping from Germany, well packaged and the 2017 Libertad is a fine bullion example- a stupidly low 700 Mintage and a decent price...nothing not to like here....but wait, what is going on with the Reverse of the 100 pesos?

...Please turn away if you're squeamish....

Any comments on what's going on with the Obverse here in terms of the dark patch, also gratefully received...

 

So, what advice can anyone give in this circumstance? - 18.305g Fine Weight at +2% Premium paid

Here's what I have done so far...

I contacted them by phone, and spoke calmly and politely- mistakes do happen- they asked me to send photo's... 

I sent the photos by email with an explanation that I didn't feel it was in acceptable condition.   I pointed out that they still had stock of this coin, and I would be happy to exchange the offending coin for an acceptable replacement.

Here's the response by email (as I say, I am still trying to get resolution here, so I won't name the company, yet):

 

So keeping my cool, despite what is a ridiculous response, I rang them back and spoke to the author of the above email.  I explained that I absolutely accept that old coins might well present with defects- the mark on the Obverse I could live with- but the defects are usually consummate with age, and not caused by some varmint with a Black & Decker.

I put to him that 'free shipping for your next order' was not acceptable to me, and I told him that the reason they couldn't send a replacement was poor 'the process of replacement would be too complicated'.  

I offered my resolution an exchange- and that I would give them my Credit Card details and they take a hold of the amount of money for the replacement and when I receive the replacement and I'm satisfied of its quality, I would return the offending coin- I explained I would do this expediently.  

Here's the response: 

 

I haven't responded as yet as I needed some thinking space.

Here's my thoughts so far- 

1.  It's interesting they now term the coin as 'damaged'.

2. I absolutely accept that my order of just over 1oz of Gold was not exactly the sale of the century to a huge dealer and to exchange it, a lot of hassle for them.

3.  If I pay by Bank Transfer, and the replacement coins arrives in unacceptable/poor condition, I will then have two duff coins and judging by the above responses, little redress.  My thoughts behind paying by Credit Card was that at least the card provider might give me some protection. 

4. They have intimated that they will shoulder the postage costs- which are £13.95- however, I will be sending the offender back essentially uninsured even Royal Mail International Tracked & Signed offers no insurance for Gold- the couriers are the same.- I would be up sh@* creek if it gets lost.  . 

5. Life's too short, I'm time poor- and the premium was low- the 18.305g of Gold stands me less than +2% over Spot- at £682-  £13 over current Spot Price (at the time of writing)- mailing it in will cost me another £9- my current thought is that I hold the Gold and wait for an adequate rise in Spot in the coming days/weeks/months/years and send it in to melt- or sell privately below Spot at melt price at that time.  

6.  I don't think I would ever take up the offer of free postage from this outfit!

7. Jeez...two gap fillers in one day....I should have done the Lottery.

Any thoughts/ comments? They will be appreciated in terms of my next move.    

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CadmiumGreen]

Can you convince the German dealer to email you photos of the coin prior to exchange as a proof of good faith in not exacerbating further? 

[Stu]

I would chalk it up to experience personally. 

[LiquidMetalsUK]

Evening Richard. As horrible as it is if it was me and hearing the murky waters that is there response I think u are right in worring about a second coin being sent in bad condition and would keep the coin as a gap filler till spot goes up. It's a tricky one as u could get a slightly better coin or not. It would be like doubling down and being in a worse position imo

Good luck with what ever u decide to do 

 

[Martlet]

Isn't this part of the history of coins we like?   

I think i'd be unhappy it wasn't sold as damaged, but at 2% thats cheap and would expect low grade.  I'd be inclined to lifes too short option, you'll still move it on when time comes to sell. 

Oh, and name them so others are forewarned of potential quality issues. 

[richatthecroft]

10 minutes ago, CadmiumGreen said:

Can you convince the German dealer to email you photos of the coin prior to exchange as a proof of good faith in not exacerbating further? 

Thanks for the response- I'm pretty certain they won't want the hassle- the person I spoke to told me on the phone 'it's in the warehouse, it was their problem, 'not ours'' (in sales dept.)!

8 minutes ago, Stu said:

I would chalk it up to experience personally. 

Thanks Stu

I'm leaning toward this outcome,  its annoying, but not a disaster.  

What is a disaster is their lack of Customer Service and more importantly (for them), their lack of foresight that I might well have bought again, and again from them....

9 minutes ago, Jamesd said:

Evening Richard. As horrible as it is if it was me and hearing the murky waters that is there response I think u are right in worring about a second coin being sent in bad condition and would keep the coin as a gap filler till spot goes up. It's a tricky one as u could get a slightly better coin or not. It would be like doubling down and being in a worse position imo

Good luck with what ever u decide to do 

 

I think you are right James, but I think any replacement couldn't get worse than this coin.  

I don't know who is worse, them selling it in the first place or the idiot who got the Black & Decker out!  

[richatthecroft]

19 minutes ago, Martlet said:

Isn't this part of the history of coins we like?   

😂

19 minutes ago, Martlet said:

I think i'd be unhappy it wasn't sold as damaged, but at 2% thats cheap and would expect low grade.  I'd be inclined to lifes too short option, you'll still move it on when time comes to sell. 

Oh, and name them so others are forewarned of potential quality issues. 

Yes- it was such a low premium- if it had simply being intact I would have been happy.

I will name the dealer- but I think it only fair to conclude the matter first- who knows, my complaint might get escalated and a MS64 example might be winging its way to me.  I'm told it's good for your well being to be optimistic. 😉 

[Pete]

Any dealer that replies in this manner should be named and shamed.
This is a coin that has been physically damaged by drilling, possibly at some stage to verify that it is real gold and not plated.
This is not wear and tear.
It is now only worth scrap and for 2% over spot this dealer is absolutely stupid in not accepting its return and to protect its business interest.
You might send them a strong letter to warn them that you will name and shame on social media platforms if they don't accept it's return or send a replacement.
You do have the option to send as scrap to HGM and get 97% of spot, take the hit and vent frustration on Facebook etc.
One thing about articles and threads on this forum is that they do get picked up very quickly by Google and are high on the search list.
This dealer might not wish the negative publicity that would definitely appear on Google from all the posts no doubt you would write with pictures etc.

[sovereignsteve]

Do I read correctly that they are offering to send you another coin post free?

If so, I would be inclined to purchase a replacement if they have "promised" to send one in good condition and sell the damaged one for as high a price as you can. Take the small hit.

The premium of 2% is, I presume, a good deal in your opinion. So if you would be happy to have one at that price.....go ahead.

 

[sovereignsteve]

From a dealer, a 2% premium is bog standard bullion price; gold irrespective of what it looks like. So in a way their response isn't entirely surprising.

Not good customer service however, unless it was specified in the item specs or somewhere in their T&C

As an aside, the only bad experiences I've ever had with coin/bullion dealers have been with German ones.🤨

[richatthecroft]

6 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

Do I read correctly that they are offering to send you another coin post free?

If so, I would be inclined to purchase a replacement if they have "promised" to send one in good condition and sell the damaged one for as high a price as you can. Take the small hit.

The premium of 2% is, I presume, a good deal in your opinion. So if you would be happy to have one at that price.....go ahead.

Makes sense- but if you take a look at the last response sent to me by email at around 5pm today, there have been no promises or even reassurances made in terms of the condition of any replacement- the free shipping is of course welcome- a 2% premium on this coin is extremely good, particularly this side of the Atlantic.  

As I say above, I need to respond to their 'offer'- I still haven't made my mind up of what I will do. 

2 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

From a dealer, a 2% premium is bog standard bullion price; gold irrespective of what it looks like. So in a way their response isn't entirely surprising.

I absolutely agree- but it wasn't described as being 'low grade'- but the age old adage of 'if its too good to be true, it usually is' should be considered however, I would bet there are many, many more tales of people making some acceptable and also, very lucrative purchases from dealers at 2- 3% above Spot than those receiving poor quality coins...

4 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

Not good customer service however, unless it was specified in the item specs or somewhere in their T&C

As an aside, the only bad experiences I've ever had with coin/bullion dealers have been with German ones.🤨

Definitely poor service- but mistakes are inevitable for all of us-  but to initially state the above in their initial email response was simply crass- but clearly they are getting by, despite this poor service. I only have very limited experience with dealers and up to this experience, I always saw a dealer as being a reasonably safe bet.  

[richatthecroft]

38 minutes ago, Pete said:

Any dealer that replies in this manner should be named and shamed.

I will be doing so once I have reached a conclusion to the matter.

39 minutes ago, Pete said:

This is a coin that has been physically damaged by drilling, possibly at some stage to verify that it is real gold and not plated.
This is not wear and tear.

They have now acknowledged it as 'damaged', perhaps some leverage here?

40 minutes ago, Pete said:

You might send them a strong letter to warn them that you will name and shame on social media platforms if they don't accept it's return or send a replacement.
You do have the option to send as scrap to HGM and get 97% of spot, take the hit and vent frustration on Facebook etc.
One thing about articles and threads on this forum is that they do get picked up very quickly by Google and are high on the search list.
This dealer might not wish the negative publicity that would definitely appear on Google from all the posts no doubt you would write with pictures etc.

Sending it in for melting is still an option- and likely my preferred option, once an adequate price rise has taken place.  

Unfortunately, I think it would be a waste of ink in terms of writing to them and threatening them isn't going to gain any leverage- they have offered to replace- and that to be fair was my request to them, but it doesn't sound like they are offering any reassurance in terms of any replacement being of acceptable quality, like Steve says, '2% Premium is bog standard bullion'- but I'm sure this coin being in their inventory is likely a mistake- they likely didn't knowingly sell this coin- but clearly their quality control isn't at the top of their list.  

 I guess if another person was dealing with my complaint, the response might have been more positive- I'll never know- unless I speak to someone higher up- in the email response, the guy says that he had 'just spoken to my Director'- tomorrow I will ask to speak to the 'Director'.

[Melon]

1 hour ago, richatthecroft said:

I will be doing so once I have reached a conclusion to the matter.

They have now acknowledged it as 'damaged', perhaps some leverage here?

Sending it in for melting is still an option- and likely my preferred option, once an adequate price rise has taken place.  

Unfortunately, I think it would be a waste of ink in terms of writing to them and threatening them isn't going to gain any leverage- they have offered to replace- and that to be fair was my request to them, but it doesn't sound like they are offering any reassurance in terms of any replacement being of acceptable quality, like Steve says, '2% Premium is bog standard bullion'- but I'm sure this coin being in their inventory is likely a mistake- they likely didn't knowingly sell this coin- but clearly their quality control isn't at the top of their list.  

 I guess if another person was dealing with my complaint, the response might have been more positive- I'll never know- unless I speak to someone higher up- in the email response, the guy says that he had 'just spoken to my Director'- tomorrow I will ask to speak to the 'Director'.

Just my 2 cents... 

2% premium is low. Expectation should be set accordingly. 

The hole is poor, so a return or replacement is a reasonable request. Unless I've misunderstood, they've agreed to this. Guaranteeing the quality of the replacement coin is a somewhat unreasonable request, as the replacement is still being sold as a 2% over spot bullion coin. One assumes they aren't seeking to send you out a coin with a hole in it again, or else they'll just be faced with another return. 

I'd advise against threatening to name and shame them online. It's unlikely to lead to a constructive exchange. By all means name them if the situation isn't resolved, but it shouldn't be a bargaining chip in my opinion. 

Drop the "acknowledged it as damaged" thinking - you're talking to a customer service rep who's communicating with you in a second language and probably earning a pittance, not the company CEO. They simply used the terminology to differentiate the coins, likely in keeping with your email to them. 

Long story short - I'd ask for a simple return, and make clear you expect them to cover the cost and insurance on the return given the item was damaged beyond normal wear and tear. Remove the replacement from the conversation. You can order another separately afterwards if you wish. 

[richatthecroft]

Thanks- they are valuable 2 Cents- thanks for getting back to me.  

33 minutes ago, Melon said:

Long story short - I'd ask for a simple return, and make clear you expect them to cover the cost and insurance on the return given the item was damaged beyond normal wear and tear. Remove the replacement from the conversation. You can order another separately afterwards if you wish. 

This 'simple return' would be my preferred option- but their T&C's don't look favourable-  this is why I asked for an exchange (least worse option).  

If the dealer was UK based (I'm in the UK) then I would have no qualms- It would be in the post already- insured for £6.60- but they have already stated the return is at my cost- fine- but I cannot insure the package- there is no insured UK to EU postal options for anything shiny- Gold, Silver, Jewellery, Banknotes & 'Valuables'- but I shall ask if they would cover it under their Insurance arrangements- this might give me some confidence. 

I'll let everyone know how I get on/what I decide.

[daca]

@richatthecroft  sorry to hear about this.

 

From this I understand that you've bought a historical coin which is a collector item, there for  return is possible.

If the dealer sold the item as bullion he should have clearly specified in the description.

 

 

[BackyardBullion]

@richatthecroft

Sorry to hear you had a bad buying experience, that really is a dog of a coin! 

If it were me in this situation I would be as equally frustrated as yourself! That said, gold.is gold at the end of the day and 2% gold is cheap. I personally would hang on to it and then sell at some point in the future when spot has recovered the 2% and then use those funds to buy something else. Hopefully the "replacement" will be in good condition.

If you were looking to send it back to the dealer in Germany Royal Mail International Tracked and Signed will give compensation up to £250 which covers PM's. I have had 3 international parcels go missing in the last 3 1/2 years selling and posting things abroad and each time had a successful payout for intentional T&S. Granted, this won't cover the full value of this gold coin!

Good luck and keep us up to date on the outcome as well as the name of this dealer!

[ilovesilverireallydo]

So my two cents:

both those marks are test marks. One is a drill the other looks like testing  acid brushed across. 

1. Sending the coin back and incurring costs and risk isn’t worth it. Hold it and sell when spot goes up a bit, 2% could go up in a couple of days! If you want to sell below spot to melt, let me know, I could probably get you 99% to 98% of spot.

2. Suggest you are willing to order a replacement  (as they are paying delivery) to CHOOSE the replacement coin! Ie send photos please. If they are dogs it would be easy to tell. 

[Nortypeter]

I would email them with a link to this thread.also advising them that their reputation is possibly being damaged by their attitude towards resolving this problem in a satisfactory manor,which is theirs in the making by not advising buyers that the coin has damage.also asking them to reconsider their offer by partialy refunding you down to spot price to resolve this matter in an amicable way,which in turn would give other buyers the confidence to deal with them in future.

[Abyss]

I have recently changing my Gold stack as well selling off all my fractional Gold and buying 1 oz Gold Britannia coins with certain designs but before pulling the trigger I have picked up the phone spoken directly with Chards, ATS Bullion, Hatton Garden Metals confirmed the name of the individual speaking with and confirmed the coin(s) that I am buying are in good bullion condition and they don't have any deep scratches or damage to outer diameter or the coin itself. When placing the order on the website if there is any special instructions I mention the person I have spoken to and thank them for confirming the coins(s) are indeed in good bullion condition.

When delivery arrives I video record the unboxing and test the gold at the same time. Dealer sent me unacceptable coin or a fake I contact the dealer and upload the video recording as proof (on DropBox and provide the link to the dealer).

IMHO Gold coins badly damaged as the ones in the photo above provided they don't fall in the historical numismatic category have value of Gold at melt and the dealer needs to either refund you cost plus postage or need to provide replacement at their cost. Very early on in my stacking I had encountered the same issue and as result taken the above precautionary steps when buying Gold from dealers. Buying from Silver Forum view the quality of coins or ask seller for more photos before purchasing but this is not possible on dealer websites.

[Roy]

14 hours ago, richatthecroft said:

5. Life's too short, I'm time poor- and the premium was low- the 18.305g of Gold stands me less than +2% over Spot- at £682-  £13 over current Spot Price (at the time of writing)- mailing it in will cost me another £9- my current thought is that I hold the Gold and wait for an adequate rise in Spot in the coming days/weeks/months/years and send it in to melt- or sell privately below Spot at melt price at that time.  

I think this is your best option. You don't need the stress!

You are building a collection and this will never be good enough so hide it away with your other bullion and wait for your retirement 😊

You can't win them all.

 

[SILVERFINGER]

Coin looks like it was drilled to test it, I would never buy anything second hand or old without seeing some decent pictures of it first, like many say on here put it away out of sight until the price is more favourable and then move it on and either find a different dealer with decent pictures of the actual item for sale or ask them to provide some.

[Melon]

Or finish drilling the hole through the coin, pop it on a chain and walk around town flashing your gold like a boss.

[Seasider]

Were there no pictures of the coin when you originally bought it?  If the pictures did not show the hole then it would be quite reasonable to ask for your money back or the pictured coin with them paying for postage both ways as they did not sell you what they agreed to sell.  

Presumably if you kept the coin it would be too much trouble to try to fill in the hole.

[motorbikez]

Put it down to experience pal, the time you've wasted on here debating in monetary terms is way more than the £10-£20 of your perceived loss. Just don't buy again from that particular dealer.

[Oldun]

No 5 or as mentioned above, own it and chain it :)