Rust spot on my gold griffin

[Hennypenny]

I've just bought this 1/4 oz Queen's Beast Griffin from an ebay seller. There is a rust coloured spot at the 6 o'clock position, just under the 'J' of JC. I'm concerned that the coin may be fake. It's a 24 carat 999.9 purity, so why has it got this rust spot?

[Serendipity]

I’ve never seen a fake Queen’s Beast before. The risks of counterfeiting such popular and exquisitely minted coins is just too great. Unfortunately, red spots do occur on 24K gold coins. A red spot occurred on one of my 24K gold coins. This has got nothing to do with impurities in the coin itself but probably due to very small amounts of copper crystallising locally on the coin’s surface. Chards has an excellent article on the subject.

https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/coin-toning/232

[Abyss]

I have heard Gold Libertards and even Sovereigns having rust spot(s) but have not come across any Gold Queens Beasts coins having them. Worried about fake coin then 5 great ways to test your gold and silver at home! is the video for you....

 

[Hennypenny]

I'm new to this and have only just discovered the Queen's Beasts. As I come into this late, the only place for me to buy the Griffin is on ebay. I paid a huge premium as you can imagine. They are not available in any of the reputable online bullion dealers. I've opened an ebay dispute because the seller must have used a stock picture, which showed a perfect flawless coin. What should I do? Shall I request a full refund or asked for a partial refund to reflect the flaw?

[MickB]

My 1/4 oz griffin has a copper spot that developed over time from when I bought it from the Royal Mint when it first came out. It's the first gold coin of mine that has done this. Should clean off easily though.

[Hennypenny]

I tried rubbing it lightly, but it doesn't come off. What would you guys suggest I do? Should I return it for a refund? 

[Midasfrog]

20 minutes ago, Hennypenny said:

I'm new to this and have only just discovered the Queen's Beasts. As I come into this late, the only place for me to buy the Griffin is on ebay. I paid a huge premium as you can imagine. They are not available in any of the reputable online bullion dealers. I've opened an ebay dispute because the seller must have used a stock picture, which showed a perfect flawless coin. What should I do? Shall I request a full refund or asked for a partial refund to reflect the flaw?

I would keep it and not worry about the red spot . Any gold coin can develop copper spots , maybe ask the seller for a part refund as it should have been mentioned in the listing. These are very easy to remove and will have no affect on the coin . Copper can leach to the surface on gold . 🧐

[Shinus73]

Some gold coins develop red copper spots. Professional conservation can remove them, but I’ve never tried to do it myself.

[Downs523]

Me, I would return for a refund. He has clearly hidden it by using a stock photo. Also it will effect the resale value for sure. 

[Hennypenny]

He is now saying that the coin he posted to me did not have any rust spot and he is accussing me of being a chancer. He did admit that the pictures he used were stock pictures, but that i should have asked him for actual pictures of the coin. I never suspected they were stock pictures until after I received the coin. What can I do to prove to ebay that the coin I received is from him? Do I bring it to a local jeweller? Now I know why people always advised not to buy on ebay. I had no choice with the Griffin because they were sold out in bullion dealers. Thanks for all your advice so far. As you may have realised, I've just joined the forum because of this. I should have join much sooner.

[Hennypenny]

More denials and accusations from the seller. Please let me know what I should do. It looks like it's his word against mine.

[Pipers]

My first thought was what do you expect from an eBay seller!

  Right did you buy the coin close to spot as bullion? 

Have you got the coin that was advertised? 

Did the seller send you the wrong coin by mistake? 

To be honest with you the beast coins are very popular and if you are back buying then you will be paying a hefty price for the coins.  Copper or red spots can happen on any coins but the seller should of informed the buyer it had developed a red spot.  There is a very slight chance the spot came in transit.  I would expect to get a small discount on the coin if it had a red spot. 

 

[Hennypenny]

No, I paid 40% (£120) above spot.

The pictures the seller posted were not of the coin I received.

Seller denied they was any red spot.

 

[Pipers]

40% above spot f_cking hell!! 

So that's @ £410 that's why he's like he is.  He admits he has sold several that means he may have more so filming or photoing a coin into a package means jack sh-t as he could of just opened it and just swapped it out for another without the photos.  His tone is poor unless you messaged him badly first.  All said and done take photos of the coin put on the site and ask the guys who get the coins graded what they think. 

I bet you won't buy from sh-t bay again. 

[Abyss]

Lots of people against eBay for PMs but a lot things could have gone wrong in this transaction. Could have received a coin with deep scratches or dents or just an empty package with no coin at all. IMHO red copper spot on the Griffin resale value 3% over Gold spot unless it can be removed without damaging the coin. Buying PMs eBay make sure have photos actual item from multiple angles with the buyer alias and date. Receive PM always have a video unboxing as evidence if the item received turns out not to be genuine or not as described. During the unboxing video test coin genuine. Last year I received four 1 oz Gold Griffin coins and three of them had significant damage to the rims and were posted together. I had video recorded unboxing and the dealer had no choice but replace my coins. I hope you get a full or partial refund but if don’t then need to put this down to learning experience. I also don’t know why you did not put up a wanted advert in the UK Europe sale section before buying on eBay or dealer for premium items. I am sure offered 40% above spot for Griffin someone on the forum is welling to sell theirs.

[Pipers]

Also there are some on here who film opening packages . 

I would escalate it with eBay as soon as possible when that is sorted remember to give him positive feedback with your experience from the seller as he cannot remove that.

[Hennypenny]

Thanks for all the advice. I definitely won't buy from ebay again. I didn't realise you can buy from this forum. I can't see any for sale.

I'm waiting for 9am to contact ebay.

[Hennypenny]

Just off the phone to ebay. I've been reassured by a lovely ebay staff (Kate), who tells me that I'll be fully protected. I will have to wait till 27 Oct before I can escalate.

[Hennypenny]

Just for your information, my initial message to him was not rude.

[Notafront4adragon]

31 minutes ago, Hennypenny said:

Thanks for all the advice. I definitely won't buy from ebay again. I didn't realise you can buy from this forum. I can't see any for sale.

I'm waiting for 9am to contact ebay.

I've had a similar experience to you so feel for you. I bought a 2005 proof with COA box etc at what was for me a good price. Upon receiving the coins noticed a mark (was a scratch not spot) which wasn't mentioned in description nor shown clearly on the photo. The seller described it as perfect and in mint condition. When I mailed to say I was disappointed and showed him the mark at first he denied even looking at the coin before sending it then started being insulting etc. The way I resolved it was to sell it on eBay with a full description and photos of the faults. I was lucky that I got what I paid for it back.

Going by what's happened and your emails to the seller I'd say there's little you can do I'm afraid but chalk it up to experience and bad luck. EBay and PayPal will take a long time if they do resolve it.

I haven't stopped using eBay completely, as there are plenty of honest sellers out there, but you've got to be very careful.

[Notafront4adragon]

12 minutes ago, Hennypenny said:

Just off the phone to ebay. I've been reassured by a lovely ebay staff (Kate), who tells me that I'll be fully protected. I will have to wait till 27 Oct before I can escalate.

I really hope they sort it out for you. Hopefully put some more faith in the market place.

[BackyardBullion]

99% of the time eBay and PayPal will protect the buyer - it's in their interest to do so otherwise people wont buy on eBay any more!

So, follow the returns/complaint process on eBay. The seller will be forced by eBay to sort it out - if he plays silly buggers then I suspect eBay will refund you and then take that money from the seller directly.

Whatever you do from this point on though keep it through eBay and the returns label they get you to print. By the sounds of it that seller could very well come back and say OK, send it back and then never sort out the refund/return properly.

eBay is very good at protecting buyers and you won't be disappointed.

An example is for me - early days buying gold I purchased a 1/2 Oz gold bar in assay card from eBay. Upon receipt and inspection I was not happy and 99.9% convinced it was a fake. Seller accused me of lying and trying to send back a fake. eBay stepped in and all was sorted.

Good luck and keep us posted!

[5huggy]

@Hennypenny - unless a PROOF QB - you have paid an awfully high premium  for "BULLION" -  

Best advice IMHO is to ask on here for a "WANTED" and see if any of us have your desire a damn sight cheaper! 

Copper spotting is more common than gets reported - it is primarily due to a concentration (PPM) of copper allloyed in a very tiny area and on oxidation results in it "STANDING OUT"

[BackyardBullion]

@Hennypenny

I would also suggest (if eBay is your only recourse to buy these coins) that you keep an eye on auctions. 

I have seen some sold auction listings end with prices around the £350 mark - and this was when gold was £75/Oz more than it is right now.

Failing that, buying from Europe might be a better option, GS.be have them for about £350 inc. postage.

https://goldsilver.be/en/gold/946-14-oz-gold-queen-s-beast-2017-griffin.html?search_query=Griffin&results=7

 

[BackyardBullion]

@Hennypenny

Here you go, if you bought the whole set it works out about £330 per coin including delivery.