completed Red spotted/finger printed proof sovereigns

[Elements]

Bit of talk recently about red spots on proof gold sovereigns. I’m interested in investigating them so if anyone has some pretty bad ones they want rid of for low premium let me know.

Additionally if anyone has any ruined by excessively finger printed,  I’d be interested in them too. Not particularly interested in scratched ones though.

thanks.

[KevjustKev]

Like this?

[Elements]

14 minutes ago, tallthinkev said:

Like this?

Yeah looks a good test coin. How much do you want for it? I only want to go to bullion price..£285?

[KevjustKev]

27 minutes ago, Elements said:

Yeah looks a good test coin. How much do you want for it? I only want to go to bullion price..£285?

I'd want a bit more than that, I'd need to replace it.

[kimchi]

2 hours ago, Elements said:

Additionally if anyone has any ruined by excessively finger printed

They are not ruined at all, can be sorted out quite easily (any expense involved could be more than returned depending on the coin).

[richatthecroft]

51 minutes ago, kimchi said:

They are not ruined at all, can be sorted out quite easily (any expense involved could be more than returned depending on the coin).

As this is @Elements 'Wanted' Post- and in keeping with the rules set out by @morezone surrounding unsolicited comments in sales threads, I'll  keep my comment brief as their will be many, and recently two threads on the subject of Red Spots/ damaged & fingerprinted Gold coins- perhaps this debate could be transferred to an appropriate new/existing thread as I find this subject very interesting, given the amount of Proof Gold coins I own.   

Like you point out, they are not 'ruined' intrinsically-  but potentially the premium could be wiped out on some coins, if they require restoring.  

I'm interested in this topic, as Red/Brown spots (not fingerprints!) are a potential on any Gold coin-, proof or not .9999 or less.  What is interesting is that red/brown spots are seen as calamatous when talked about- more interesting is that productive conversation on the subject always seems to lead to quite a bit of disparagement and opposition to Proof coins.

I think @Elements offer to buy these types of coins is a honourable one and might well help people out. 

NB.  Not all fingerprinting can be professionally removed from Proof coins- I know this from experience.  Red/Brown Spot- I have had success in the small sample sent for conservation.  

  

[kimchi]

I really do appreciate the sentiments and intention @richatthecroft but I think the OP is very misleading saying these coins are 'ruined' with fingerprints. I'd rather address it straight on and give the OP a chance to respond than report it and have the whole thread removed. Hope that is understood

12 minutes ago, richatthecroft said:

Not all fingerprinting can be professionally removed from Proof coins- I know this from experience.

Maybe there are some with more experience than you there then as I've never heard it to be a problem (even for sufficiently knowledgeable home 'chemists' (?). I know more than one trader who grabs these coins and after 'washing' them gets absolutely top grades. I would never think of doing it myself but if I had such coins I know a few folk who could do a job as good as, if not better, than NGC and achieve 70s.

Sorry, I don't mean to be rude, I hope I haven't been, I mean well (both to the OP and yourself)

[Elements]

Report away if you like but marked proofs are ruined in many people’s eyes! I do however agree though that a lot of surface contamination can be removed by conservation, I’ve had this done by ngc and done so myself but I’ve never attempted red spots. Typically the fingerprinted ones I’ve had are often scratched to varying degrees as well as fingerprinted and you can’t tell easily until the contamination is removed, nothing anyone can do about physical damage.

17 minutes ago, kimchi said:

I really do appreciate the sentiments and intention @richatthecroft but I think the OP is very misleading saying these coins are 'ruined' with fingerprints. I'd rather address it straight on and give the OP a chance to respond than report it and have the whole thread removed. Hope that is understood

Maybe there are some with more experience than you there then as I've never heard it to be a problem (even for sufficiently knowledgeable home 'chemists' (?). I know more than one trader who grabs these coins and after 'washing' them gets absolutely top grades. I would never think of doing it myself but if I had such coins I know a few folk who could do a job as good as, if not better, than NGC and achieve 70s.

Sorry, I don't mean to be rude, I hope I haven't been, I mean well (both to the OP and yourself)

 

[richatthecroft]

6 minutes ago, kimchi said:

I really do appreciate the sentiments and intention @richatthecroft but I think the OP is very misleading saying these coins are 'ruined' with fingerprints. I'd rather address it straight on and give the OP a chance to respond than report it and have the whole thread removed. Hope that is understood

Sorry @Elements- your thread has been well and truly highjacked   

I think I understood implicitly what you were getting at in the original comment- but perhaps yours and my comments would be more useful in another thread.  

Its an interesting subject- and not talked about enough, given that this phenomenon could possibly affect anyone buying Gold.

Don't get me started on Milk Spots on Silver coins- another widespread phenomenon, and I would suggest a more difficult proporsition to tackle.     

You are also absolutely right, I have very little experience in terms of Gold/ Silver- and I know nothing about restoration/ conservation in practice, so an even better reason for more experienced people to contribute- in a suitably titled and productive thread- and the thread not deteriorating into Proof coin bashing.  

[KevjustKev]

3 hours ago, Elements said:

Yeah looks a good test coin. How much do you want for it? I only want to go to bullion price..£285?

I would be willing to swap for a nice bullion sov

[Elements]

1 minute ago, richatthecroft said:

Sorry @Elements- your thread has been well and truly highjacked   

I think I understood implicitly what you were getting at in the original comment- but perhaps yours and my comments would be more useful in another thread.  

Its an interesting subject- and not talked about enough, given that this phenomenon could possibly affect anyone buying Gold.

Don't get me started on Milk Spots on Silver coins- another widespread phenomenon, and I would suggest a more difficult proporsition to tackle.     

You are also absolutely right, I have very little experience in terms of Gold/ Silver- and I know nothing about restoration/ conservation in practice, so an even better reason for more experienced people to contribute- in a suitably titled and productive thread- and the thread not deteriorating into Proof coin bashing.  

Yeah I know what you mean. Sometimes written word can easily be taken out of context and maybe the initial description wasn’t well thought out. I know what you mean about silver, I’ll leave that alone. As a chemist I know how troublesome it can be!

[Elements]

2 minutes ago, tallthinkev said:

I would be willing to swap for a nice bullion sov

Done! I have a nice shiny 2019 or 2 2019 halves? I’ll pay for postage both ways and let you and the forum know if red spots can be removed!

[goldmember44]

Finger prints and many types of spots and dirt can be successfully removed through conservation, which doesn't cost a lot of money, and often a coin can be fully restored as new. This is especially important for proof coins that normally have an expensive premium. All is definitely not lost!

The only thing that cannot be fixed are scratches...

[danmc82]

1 hour ago, goldmember44 said:

Finger prints and many types of spots and dirt can be successfully removed through conservation, which doesn't cost a lot of money, and often a coin can be fully restored as new. This is especially important for proof coins that normally have an expensive premium. All is definitely not lost!

The only thing that cannot be fixed are scratches...

You can actually clean them yourself with care. I did a thread on it a while ago. Its whether the owner has the balls to do it 😁

[richatthecroft]

2 hours ago, Elements said:

Typically the fingerprinted ones I’ve had are often scratched to varying degrees as well as fingerprinted and you can’t tell easily until the contamination is removed, nothing anyone can do about physical damage.

To a point @goldmember44 but my experience is similar to @Elements

18 minutes ago, danmc82 said:

You can actually clean them yourself with care. I did a thread on it a while ago. Its whether the owner has the balls to do it 😁

You have bigger balls than me @danmc82 😂  

I once made a right pigs ear with tin foil and baking soda- and I won't go into the great flood of 1993 when I was banned by my wife from plumbing ever again- if I ever mention 'I'll give it a bash' she reminds me of the said flood...

[goldmember44]

1 minute ago, richatthecroft said:

To a point @goldmember44 but my experience is similar to @Elements

You have bigger balls than me @danmc82 😂  

I once made a right pigs ear with tin foil and baking soda- and I won't go into the great flood of 1993 when I was banned by my wife from plumbing ever again- if I ever mention 'I'll give it a bash' she reminds me of the said flood...

I didn't mean you do it yourself, you can send it in to NGC and they do conservation for a reasonable fee. And maybe grade it thereafter and it would be worth more!

[richatthecroft]

3 minutes ago, goldmember44 said:

I didn't mean you do it yourself, you can send it in to NGC and they do conservation for a reasonable fee. And maybe grade it thereafter and it would be worth more!

I got you- @danmc82 is the DIY'er 😀

[richatthecroft]

@ChrisSIlver I am aware that collectively we are ruining @Elements 'Wanted' Thread- is it possible that our irrelevant posts are moved to a suitable topic/new topic.  

[Elements]

Keep it going think me and @tallthinkev are sorted! I’ll put the thread as completed.

 We are a custodian of the coin for future generations and just temporary owners, so I think we have a responsibility to treat Numi coins with utmost respect and so personally I wouldn’t mess with anything of real numismatic value, some say the dirt and contamination on older Numi coins is part of history. So whether they should be conserved at all is debatable. Even regarding bullion someone cleaned their bullion Libertad recently and some posters weren’t happy. Personally I wouldn’t mess very old coins but then the notion of age is a debatable!

My own view on it all is that conservation is removing foreign contamination in a way that does no damage to the underlying coin restoring it to how it was before it became contaminated. But I limit myself to doing so on modern proofs.

It can be done yourself if you know what you are doing but it’s risky and if you were to get it graded, get ngc to do it at the same time it doesn’t cost a lot. (Diverging a bit but I wonder what disclaimer there is if ngc does it, there is some handling involved and what if they dropped it by accident?! Same issue with grading I guess but with solvents etc it increases the risk of slippage) Sometimes though you might have an unsightly coin and either don’t like slabs or don’t want it graded for any other reason, maybe if it’s a bullion coin so perhaps might not be economically worth conserving and grading like the lib example above but even though it’s bullion the owner may want a visually nice coin. Then it might be worth doing yourself...or sending to me to sort out 😂

[KevjustKev]

That's what I have wondered, what happens if NGC, or PCGS bugger up your coin? If it was going to be AU 58 and it goes down to AU 53, no great loss (kind of), however PF 70 down to PF 63 that is a problem. 

[danmc82]

55 minutes ago, tallthinkev said:

That's what I have wondered, what happens if NGC, or PCGS bugger up your coin? If it was going to be AU 58 and it goes down to AU 53, no great loss (kind of), however PF 70 down to PF 63 that is a problem. 

Would they even tell you what it "Could" have graded? Or just say it was poor to begin with.

[richatthecroft]

3 minutes ago, danmc82 said:

Would they even tell you what it "Could" have graded? Or just say it was poor to begin with.

Interesting question- the latter perhaps- I'm sure the t&c's will provide a get out in any case.  

[richatthecroft]

Anyway, on the topic of conservation- if anyone is interested- here's some before and afters that @Elements undertook for me.

The first was a 2017 SOTD (I had a Thread here on the Forum to swap this for x2 Bullion Sovs, there were no takers- thank goodness!)  Currently, this coin is at NGC for Grading:  

BEFORE: 

 

AFTER:

 

[richatthecroft]

Heres a 2018 SOTD that was extremely grubby too.  It’s also in for Grading

BEFORE:

AFTER:

 

[richatthecroft]

And a 1937 Set that was bought at a local to me auction.  Between viewing and me receiving it, person/ people handled the coins, by the looks of them, shortly after  eating their Fish & Chips. I asked @Elements if he could remove the crud.

BEFORE:

DIRECTLY AFTER:

AND HERE'S THE CRUD THAT WAS REMOVED: