Selling silver & gold to businesses

[Groundup]

40 minutes ago, HawkHybrid said:

 

it's suggested that silver is 60%+ correlated to

gold? (the price of both gold and silver mostly

move in the same direction)

 

HH

I've noted it's suggested. Thanks 👍

[Roy]

@sixgun, Yes, that's how I understood it, you're using gold and silver but in different ways, and for different reasons 👍

 

 

 

[sixgun]

15 minutes ago, Roy said:

@sixgun, Yes, that's how I understood it, you're using gold and silver but in different ways, and for different reasons 👍

 

i hope to gradually withdraw the income i get from KVT's and buy physical i hold. Then withdraw income i get from KVT's and minting/holding to buy the equivalent physical i bought in the Kinesis system. That way everything i have in Kinesis will be 'free money'. So i will have the physical i would have had if i had not invested in Kinesis plus the bullion and income generated from Kinesis. Clearly there is risk. i am very mindful a government has all the guns and could confiscate the gold/silver - which is why the ABX has vaults around the world and is working with governments where possible which along with the most insured bullion of any privately vaulted bullion, reduces that risk.

The profits from Kinesis are a diversified investment. Most of the profit i hope to make is independant of the price of gold and silver. The profit is my share of transaction fees - the income is dependant on the value of coins being transacted. If gold/silver go up then coins will turn over slower - you need less coins to buy goods/pay for services - if gold/silver goes down then the coins will turn over faster as you need more coins to do the same job. Either way the value of coins turning over is the same so the transactions fees are the same and my share is the same.

People are viewing this as a pure bullion play - it isn't. This is a currency system where my profit comes from the system being used to pay for goods and services. Yes i will make profit if the coins i hold go up in value - this has already happened. The gold price will do what it will but i would actually rather it stayed flat.

[Groundup]

1 hour ago, tallyhojim said:

Any Government regardless of where they are in the world can physically confiscate the contents of any bank or vault. This also includes digital and paper ownership. Granted it would take a serious sh#tstorm of a situation to do that but the fact remains if they want it bad enough, there's not a damn thing anyone can do to stop it. And the fact that it's all centralised simply makes it much easier for them. Transferring wealth to another vaulted location? Forget it, if they can give themselves the power to confiscate, you can bet your bottom dollar that includes reversing any instructions by the legitimate owners to try and offshore it. The powers that be use an existing method to confiscate property from criminal enterprises so it's not as if they don't know how to do it. Our own Parliament has Laws on the Statute books that would allow them to do this, and if the current Statute didn't give them the legal framework they needed it wouldn't take long to amend it. They can amend Laws much faster than they can enact Laws.

Insurance you say? Pah! The moment you get reimbursed for that "legalised" theft, good old Mr State will take that as well. After all, any insurance payment will be done electronically and Mr State has the means to intercept that as well.

And here's the kicker. If the UK ends up down that path it means something very bad has happened. Something that is probably happening around the world as well. So if in the off chance our own lot of spineless fish can't get it, simply transferring it out to another international vault won't stop that receiving country's government from doing the same. You'll be like a baby seal stuck between two sharks.

But if all that doom and gloom scenario was playing out, it probably means we're in the grip of a global war so........

---

Added 0 minutes later...

Please stop with the obfuscation strawman responses.

You are being selective only applying the confiscation to vaults or companies. Why can't they then confiscate the physical that your holding.  Have you got a secrete way of hiding how you purchase the said physical. Can't the powers that be look into your bank details and realized you  hold physical.... Hang on.. ups I had a boating accident.  Come on  you got to play the game. If you're suggesting it can happen to vaults ect well the it's plausible it can happen to everyone.  

Where did you get the confiscation theory from!!

[tallyhojim]

Confiscation isn't a theory. History is our friend. Yes it'll be banks and vaults that are the first target, but then it will be individuals in the form of door to door. Once they've gained control of those banks they then have access to all those digital records detailing who bought PM's from whom. But until they turn up at your door in black, it's still in your possession if you haven't already hidden it.

Pre and Post WW2 the USA has precedence for this. The UK has precedence for this. Australia has precedence for this.

If the UK suddenly announced that everyone must had over their PM's, most people would tell them to eff off. But if the masses were socialised enough over X years to accept whatever they were told like good little Socialists by their lefty teachers from the moment they set foot in public schools (just like what Hitler and Stalin did to their own people - they were socialised), then TPTB can then very easily acquire the rest. And let's be honest, our society is already over half way there to being fully "socialised".

[Roy]

Socialists understand gold!

They hoard it like anyone else 😁

[5huggy]

16 minutes ago, tallyhojim said:

but then it will be individuals in the form of door to door.

 

16 minutes ago, tallyhojim said:

But until they turn up at your door in black, it's still in your possession if you haven't already hidden it.

" I ain't got none of that bad" metal no more Mr!"  - "I SOLD IT ALL to the GUY DOwn the pub"!!! 😉

[Groundup]

Again your being selective.

Can you elaborate on the confiscation you alude too.. I'm sure it isn't a cut and dry... they came they took, 

I'm sure there was certain criteria involved.

I'm not suggesting that it's can't happen. But your having tunnel vision on how and who Will be targeted.

As if holding only physical is the way to go. 

Sixgun has eloquently and far better than I could described why we are doing the kinesis route.  

I tend not to be so pessimistic. Yes i believe in physical ( don't hold it don't own it..l but I also believe not every last Oz should be held in this manner you have to  trust in something's.

 

[Groundup]

I ain't got none of that bad" metal no more Mr!"  - "I SOLD IT ALL to the GUY DOwn the pub"!!! 😉

Well then your arrested for selling illegal PM's.!!

[Groundup]

And you just grassed somebody up. 

[RoughDog]

6 minutes ago, Groundup said:

I ain't got none of that bad" metal no more Mr!"  - "I SOLD IT ALL to the GUY DOwn the pub"!!! 😉

Well then your arrested for selling illegal PM's.!!

Was they illegal when you sold them?

[Roy]

What's all this capitalisation and enlarging or colouring the font?

Is this the KindyForum? Be polite please. We're adults here.

P.S. the grammar standard has seriously dropped lately,

 

[mr1030]

2 hours ago, tallyhojim said:

Any Government regardless of where they are in the world can physically confiscate the contents of any bank or vault. This also includes digital and paper ownership. Granted it would take a serious sh#tstorm of a situation to do that but the fact remains if they want it bad enough, there's not a damn thing anyone can do to stop it. And the fact that it's all centralised simply makes it much easier for them. Transferring wealth to another vaulted location? Forget it, if they can give themselves the power to confiscate, you can bet your bottom dollar that includes reversing any instructions by the legitimate owners to try and offshore it. The powers that be use an existing method to confiscate property from criminal enterprises so it's not as if they don't know how to do it. Our own Parliament has Laws on the Statute books that would allow them to do this, and if the current Statute didn't give them the legal framework they needed it wouldn't take long to amend it. They can amend Laws much faster than they can enact Laws.

Insurance you say? Pah! The moment you get reimbursed for that "legalised" theft, good old Mr State will take that as well. After all, any insurance payment will be done electronically and Mr State has the means to intercept that as well.

And here's the kicker. If the UK ends up down that path it means something very bad has happened. Something that is probably happening around the world as well. So if in the off chance our own lot of spineless fish can't get it, simply transferring it out to another international vault won't stop that receiving country's government from doing the same. You'll be like a baby seal stuck between two sharks.

But if all that doom and gloom scenario was playing out, it probably means we're in the grip of a global war so........

---

Added 0 minutes later...

 

Yes, a Government can confiscate a vaults holdings at some point, but you make it sound like they are omnipotent in their ability to strike everywhere, out of the blue with no warning. They can't strike everywhere at once.   Unless your vault happens to be  unlucky enough to be the first one to be victimized by confiscation,  (COMEX and LBMA vaults would be the first hit),  the bullion industry will have plenty of warning that confiscation is taking place.  And I'm sure businesses in the bullion industry will have plenty of time to notice the political winds of change becoming hostile to their business interests.  

In the case of Kinesis, if they come to the conclusion that a jurisdiction in which they have a vault has turned hostile to their interests, they will move the bullion to a different vault in another country.  And as a final backup they are insured.  And as they are incorporated in a VERY business friendly jurisdiction, I don't think the insurance money is going to be seized.

You would have to have pretty much all Government jurisdictions decide to seize PM's everywhere at the same time.  Given that is unlikely to happen,  I'm reasonably secure in the ability of Kinesis/ABX to provide a safe and reliable, audited vaulting system.  ABX has been doing it for over 10 years.

But,  then again,  the sun may shoot a mass coronal ejection at the earth, causing hemisphere wide blackouts lasting for months.  Or the earth may be struck by a huge asteroid, causing an extinction level event, so why even buy PM's?     The point being, the you and I, businesses, Kinesis/ABX,  can only take reasonable precautions against foreseeable events that may have a reasonable chance of occurring.

[Groundup]

20 minutes ago, Roy said:

What's all this capitalisation and enlarging or colouring the font?

Is this the KindyForum? Be polite please. We're adults here.

P.S. the grammar standard has seriously dropped lately,

 

My bad I was lazy and copied and pasted... then the rest of the text came out like that. Don't ask me how I'm not smartphone literate.

[Groundup]

31 minutes ago, RoughDog said:

Was they illegal when you sold them?

Apparently yes

[Roy]

Is that because you were brought up on a council estate?

[RoughDog]

1 minute ago, Roy said:

Is that because you were brought up on a council estate?

You say that like it's a bad thing 😀

[Roy]

Of course it's not, but it's a common excuse 😁

[5huggy]

1 hour ago, Groundup said:

And you just grassed somebody up. 

WHO?? twas just some bloke!!!

[HawkHybrid]

21 hours ago, sixgun said:

The profits from Kinesis are a diversified investment. Most of the profit i hope to make is independant of the price of gold and silver.

 

if I understand this correctly, I don't think this is true.

just as interest on a bank account is not diversified

against the account principle. landlords rent income

is not diversified versus housing prices?

put another way if pms does poorly, it's highly

likely that the flow of kinesis will do poorly too?

 

HH

[sixgun]

1 hour ago, HawkHybrid said:

if I understand this correctly, I don't think this is true. just as interest on a bank account is not diversified

against the account principle. landlords rent income is not diversified versus housing prices?

put another way if pms does poorly, it's highly likely that the flow of kinesis will do poorly too?

HH

So the key question is, will Kinesis yields be related to the price of gold/silver? The answer is yes and no. The yield is not immediately dependant on the price of gold - it is the volume of coins x the velocity of coins (rate of turnover). All yields are directly linked to this b/c this is the formula for the income Kinesis generates out of which the various yields are paid. If there were no turnover of coins, there would be no income and no yields.

Will the price of gold and silver influence the income of Kinesis? Well the more exhuberant the precious metals markets, the more interest there will be from the public for precious metals and so likely in all things gold and silver including Kinesis. If precious metals were to do badly the negative sentiment would likely feed back into systems like Kinesis. However is this the 100% or near 100% linkage we see in bullion precious metal in a shoebox under the stairs? No b/c we have the factor of the yield. Of course precious metals and fiat are linked - they are matter and anti-matter. Bonds are linked to gold. Interest rates are linked to gold.

Traditional gold has no yield. Low interest rates and low bond yields, especially when there are negative real interest rates which we unofficially have at the moment, make gold much more attractive. Gold costs to vault and insure and gives no yield but over the longer term it has preserved purchasing power compared to fiat which has purchasing power heading to zero at various rates depending on whose face is printed on the broken promissory notes. Kinesis offers gold with a yield, depending on how you use the system. It offers zero vaulting charges, preserves purchasing power and offers a yield. Clearly the price of gold/silver will be linked to the take up and usage of the Kinesis currency system but it is a long way from plain vanilla bullion gold in the traditional vaulting system or in a shoebox squirrelled away somewhere dark. Kinesis is a currency system. i would still use the system even with falling gold prices, just i wouldn't use it to save.

There are very few 'investments' that are completely unconnected, the connections are just more of less. Fiat is constantly falling but people still buy bonds, still have bank accounts and still spend it. Gold has tended to be counter cyclical to paper assets. A booming economy means more spending - faster turnover of fiat and so would likely see higher velocity of Kinesis. A rocky economy has seen a flight to solid assets - to things like gold. It also sees less spending - not good for Kinesis since coin velocity is the driver of the currency system's income stream. So one could make an arguement that Kinesis flips things on its head with respect to gold. We will have to see.

i am not entirely clear how it will spin out but i know there have been musings about other assets to back coins. Kinesis is complicated already so i am not keen on the idea at least until it is a few years down the road. Could anything tangible back the coins? Could these tangibles be configured to smooth out the ride? Probably so. We will have to see. Personally i see asset backed cryptos as the way of the future.

[HawkHybrid]

24 minutes ago, sixgun said:

i would still use the system even with falling prices, just i wouldn't use it to save.

 

this doesn't make sense. it's not ok for paper

currency to inflate away your currency. but it's

ok for kinesis to drop in value?

 

I think kinesis is more closely linked to the price

of pms. why would anyone choose kinesis over

paper currency if it wasn't the idea of a return to

some kind of gold standard? if gold wasn't

holding it's price why would you choose a gold

standard?

 

37 minutes ago, sixgun said:

No b/c we have the factor of the yield.

 

(as i understand it) the 'pay as you use' model

is problematic. why would anyone choose this

over the 'prepaid, free to use' model?

are you relying on people to pay into the kitty

who have no incentive to do so?

 

HH

[sixgun]

10 minutes ago, HawkHybrid said:

this doesn't make sense. it's not ok for paper currency to inflate away your currency. but it's ok for kinesis to drop in value?

i would not save in (gold) Kinesis - i would find something else unless Kinesis worked out better. i wouldn't save in fiat - that is so passé.

12 minutes ago, HawkHybrid said:

I think kinesis is more closely linked to the price of pms. why would anyone choose kinesis over paper currency if it wasn't the idea of a return to some kind of gold standard? if gold wasn'tholding it's price why would you choose a gold standard?

Kinesis will be used worldwide - the main interest has come from SE Asia - there is growing interest in Africa - with the connections the team already have in the Americas - (Hugo Salinas Price and Carlos Slim), penetration is going to be significant. Now think about the currencies in these areas and think about gold and silver. Which sounds the better bet - i might not save in Kinesis but if i were in other climes i would be clambering to do so.

19 minutes ago, HawkHybrid said:

(as i understand it) the 'pay as you use' model is problematic. why would anyone choose this over the 'prepaid, free to use' model?

are you relying on people to pay into the kitty who have no incentive to do so?

HH

Many do not have free to use models - there are many millions who are unbanked - they have to use other payment systems. They will save their hard earned value and have the security of gold.

[HawkHybrid]

many use the us dollar worldwide.

(like zimbabwe after their currency collapse)

 

the point I was trying to make is you would

use kinesis as a currency in a falling gold

prices time frame.  in that same time frame

you would choose kinesis over paper

currency despite there being no real reason to

do so.

without the bias, I see it as a hard sell to get

people to choose to use kinesis and pay each

time they use it.

 

HH

[sixgun]

11 minutes ago, HawkHybrid said:

many use the us dollar worldwide. (like zimbabwe after their currency collapse) the point I was trying to make is you would use kinesis as a currency in a falling gold prices time frame.  in that same time frame you would choose kinesis over paper currency despite there being no real reason to do so.

without the bias, I see it as a hard sell to get people to choose to use kinesis and pay each time they use it.

HH

The biggest inroad so far is in Indonesia. There are millions of Indonesians working outside the country who send money home - $billions every year. At the moment the most popular arrangement is using MoneyGram or Western Union in conjunction with the post office. This is not cheap but it works. PT POS - the Indonesian post office is all on board with Kinesis. It works out better for the post office and works out better for workers. It is also a Sharia compliant method. The post office is the centre of finance for most people in Indonesia (265 million people). i have heard of the problems paying such as the electric bill - it can take quite a journey - time and expense. With Kinesis and PT POS it can be paid in seconds.

We will see - in large parts of the world i don't see it being such a hard sell, especially in nations who want to see the back of the USD and US influence.