French 20 franc 1912 restrike

[LiquidMetalsUK]

Morning guys. Just wanted some opinions on this coin as it is one I have been looking out for. One sold on the forum last week and I missed it. Looking at this it's a restrike by the French mint. So my question is does this affect the value going forward or is it still worth the money as I've been offered one today for £220 which I think is a good price. 

Opinions from people who know a little more about gold than me would be appreciated. Thanks 

[Goldhooked]

They’re all restrikes from 1907 onwards.  More info here - https://www.mintstategold.com/investor-education/cat/popular-coin-history/post/french-gold-rooster/

[LiquidMetalsUK]

Yes I did read up on them and saw this. Just wanting to know if there's a massive difference between the earlier origanal coins and these later restrike. Apart from the price 👍

[Goldhooked]

From that webpage...

”The main difference between the original coins (1899-1906) and the restrikes is the edge: The original inscription read Dieu Protege la France (God Save France); for the restrike it read Liberte Egalite Fraternite (Liberty Equality Fraternity). Otherwise, there’s no difference.”

[ilovesilverireallydo]

It’s not a terrible price but at today’s gold prices I would go for an older LMU. 

Hatton Gardens Metals have a few in stock and still work out less than £220 posted

https://www.hattongardenmetals.com/buy/french-20-gold-franc

https://www.hattongardenmetals.com/buy/swiss-gold-franc

https://www.hattongardenmetals.com/buy/Austrian-Gold-20-Francs-8-Florins

[LiquidMetalsUK]

Cool I'll have a little look this afternoon. Thanks 

 

[Serendipity]

11 hours ago, Goldhooked said:

From that webpage...

”The main difference between the original coins (1899-1906) and the restrikes is the edge: The original inscription read Dieu Protege la France (God Save France); for the restrike it read Liberte Egalite Fraternite (Liberty Equality Fraternity). Otherwise, there’s no difference.”

That’s a very interesting observation! I had no idea you could tell the difference between the originals and restrikes by the edge inscription.

[LiquidMetalsUK]

Was an interesting read for sure. Managed to pick a really nice 1908 today so very happy. These older gold coins are just amazing.

[AndrewSL76]

Sorry to revive this thread but I bought a 1911 20 Franc yesterday. It is stunning and in great condition so clearly a restrike (with the edge writing confirming my view!)

Does anyone know why the Mint restruck using the earlier dates and what led them to go for 1911 or 1912 etc.?

[AndrewSL76]

[AndrewSL76]

On 26/06/2019 at 10:18, Goldhooked said:

From that webpage...

”The main difference between the original coins (1899-1906) and the restrikes is the edge: The original inscription read Dieu Protege la France (God Save France); for the restrike it read Liberte Egalite Fraternite (Liberty Equality Fraternity). Otherwise, there’s no difference.”

I read an alternative view that the Marianne/rooster 20 francs have been minted in two series. From 1899 to 1906 with the edge inscribed Dieu protege la France, then from 1907 to 1914 with the edge inscribed Liberté Egalité Fraternité. Does anyone have a definitive answer, please?

[Goldhooked]

On 26/06/2019 at 10:18, Goldhooked said:

From that webpage...

”The main difference between the original coins (1899-1906) and the restrikes is the edge: The original inscription read Dieu Protege la France (God Save France); for the restrike it read Liberte Egalite Fraternite (Liberty Equality Fraternity). Otherwise, there’s no difference.”

18 minutes ago, AndrewSL76 said:

I read an alternative view that the Marianne/rooster 20 francs have been minted in two series. From 1899 to 1906 with the edge inscribed Dieu protege la France, then from 1907 to 1914 with the edge inscribed Liberté Egalité Fraternité. Does anyone have a definitive answer, please?

 

Isn't that saying exactly the same thing?  The 1907 - 1914 dated coins ARE the restrikes.

 

Quote

20 Franc coins dated 1899 - 1906 are the original issue coin - the other dates 1907 - 1914 are almost certainly restrikes which were issued 1921 and 1951-1960 by the Paris Mint.

https://www.bullionbypost.co.uk/world-coins/french-francs/20-franc-french-gold-coin-original-1899-1906/

[Kookaburracollector]

12 minutes ago, AndrewSL76 said:

I read an alternative view that the Marianne/rooster 20 francs have been minted in two series. From 1899 to 1906 with the edge inscribed Dieu protege la France, then from 1907 to 1914 with the edge inscribed Liberté Egalité Fraternité. Does anyone have a definitive answer, please?

I would say that what you have stated above is spot on. The only addition I would make, is that I believe the 1906 coin can have either inscription on it..i.e there are originals for this year (which I have) and re-strikes (which I don’t)- happy to be corrected if that’s not the case.

[AndrewSL76]

Thanks for the responses. I have not been very clear about my question - sorry.

Coins minted between 1899 and 1906 are originals (unless fake!) and are edged: Dieu Protege La France

Coins minted between 1907 and 1914 are restrikes and are edged Liberte Egalite Fraternite

Coins minted in 1921 and 1950-1960 are also restrikes but have the dates 1907-1914 and are edged Liberte Egalite Fraternite.

How can you tell the difference between the dated restrikes and the later restrikes.

Am I just confusing myself now???

Sorry!!!!!

[Sparrow]

The French rooster is a beautiful coin, restrike or not.  

Got my hands on a 1901 rooster last year, no regrets. 

[Goldhooked]

2 minutes ago, AndrewSL76 said:

Thanks for the responses. I have not been very clear about my question - sorry.

Coins minted between 1899 and 1906 are originals (unless fake!) and are edged: Dieu Protege La France

Coins minted between 1907 and 1914 are restrikes and are edged Liberte Egalite Fraternite

Coins minted in 1921 and 1950-1960 are also restrikes but have the dates 1907-1914 and are edged Liberte Egalite Fraternite.

How can you tell the difference between the dated restrikes and the later restrikes.

Am I just confusing myself now???

Sorry!!!!!

I see what you mean.  If the same dies were used then it would probably be impossible to tell I would have thought?

[AndrewSL76]

Just now, Goldhooked said:

I see what you mean.  If the same dies were used then it would probably be impossible to tell I would have thought?

Agreed. Is there a Marsh like book on these coins?

I am really happy with the coin, but as it is an investment, I would like to know more about it. More so because when I come to sell it I want to be clear about what it is (as best as I can).

A.

[Goldhooked]

5 minutes ago, AndrewSL76 said:

Is there a Marsh like book on these coins?

I think @Kookaburracollector had something, I can't remember the name of it though.

[Kookaburracollector]

6 minutes ago, Goldhooked said:

I think @Kookaburracollector had something, I can't remember the name of it though.

I have a book:-

which has three pages of information on the Rooster...only problem is ...I don’t speak French 😂

Can anyone help on this one @augur 😂

 

 

 

[AndrewSL76]

Mon Dieu! Merci!!! 

I will have a look and report back. My French is broken, but I should be ok. I will feed back if there are clear answers from my 'Allo 'Allo style French..

In the meantime - @augur - does it say anything definitive here about the 1907-1914 restrikes - whether there are specific differences between the mintage periods and dates on the coins?

A.

[AndrewSL76]

PS Does anyone else think that in France, right now, someone is trying to decipher a puzzling sovereign question using broken English to read Marsh?

[Goldhooked]

@Kookaburracollector I just did a search of the other LMU thread and there is mention of a little red book - Monnais Francaises.  Was that one any good?

[Kookaburracollector]

1 minute ago, Goldhooked said:

@Kookaburracollector I just did a search of the other LMU thread and there is mention of a little red book - Monnais Francaises.  Was that one any good?

I sent that to Augur last year as a present,  and he ditched this French book on me in return 😂...I will have words with him later and try and get him to take up this case.

[augur]

@AndrewSL76 F.535 is your coin:

Distinguishing factors of the restrikes are the gold colour (more reddish due to the lower silver content in the alloy) and the higher quality of the minting process.

Starting with the polished planchets (missing the striated surface of original strikes) and struck with higher pressure, coins only present bagmarks but no wear from circulation. There are no specifics as to how many coins were restruck for each year, just the overall figure but since the 1907-1914 coins were used in circulation, it is highly unusual to come across a high grade original.

There are three possible surface compositions, which can differ between obverse and reverse: 1) brilliant throughout when struck from fresh dies (akin bullion sovereigns), 2) highly lustrous after die surface wear from striking and 3) brilliant fields with frosty lustrous devices after repolishing the fields of the dies (proof-like). Yours seems to fall into category 2) – highly lustrous throughout on both sides. 

[augur]

7 hours ago, AndrewSL76 said:

Sorry to revive this thread but I bought a 1911 20 Franc yesterday. It is stunning and in great condition so clearly a restrike (with the edge writing confirming my view!)

Does anyone know why the Mint restruck using the earlier dates and what led them to go for 1911 or 1912 etc.?

Sorry, missed that in my original answer:

A lot of coins were molten down to bars to pay for the orders of war materials and goods with the US during WW I. 

Pre 1907 the coins had the edge inscription ‘Dieu protège la France’ which did not go down well with anti-religious fanatics who nearly started a civil war and had to be driven out by military force from convents snd other installations they had occupied. Therefore only the 1907-14 version with ‘liberté égalité fraternité’ could be used to replace coins after the gold market reopened in 1948. A small batch was struck in 1921 (presumably from reparation payments from Germany).