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Copper spots on Libertad gold


Lindeman

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I love all of my gold Libertads - I really do, but when checking over some bullion coins I have stored safely in Airtites and in tubes I was pretty miffed at the red spotting that has developed in the last 2 years on this 1 ounce BU Libertad. Both sides now spotted.  I know it does not alter the bullion value, but personally I like the semi - numismatic value of the gold BU coins as they are all pretty low mintage, but this degree of spotting will not help in retaining any premium. Is it just me or are the red spotting issues with Libertads getting more common compared to 4/5 years ago. ? I have seen it now on BU and brand new proof coins. Anyone have any tips to avoid ? 

Lindeman 

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I think it’s just the copper alloy within the gold, just by chance concentrations of copper within the alloy end up at the surface and oxidise. Not a lot realistically you can do to prevent them. 

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Funny how these 999 gold coins get spots from 'copper alloy'.

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14 minutes ago, sixgun said:

Funny how these 999 gold coins get spots from 'copper alloy'.

Gold – Red Spot -The common mark seen on fine Gold products, bars and coins, is a very small red or reddish-brown spot. Such marks can vary from sharply defined micro-dot size to soft-edged pinhead size. Traditionally, these red spots have been explained as tiny specs of Copper (part of the 0.0001 of the item in 0.9999 purity Gold) that are exposed at the surface of the item and react with air. A further explanation would be the presence of a spec on the blank, or the minting equipment, that is bonded to the item during minting. Very recent research in China suggests that the spots can also result from small spots of Silver, almost always found in Gold, reacting with Sulphur in the atmosphere.

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@Elements yes i saw that article - what i was thinking is, i have a fair few sovereigns - can't recall any spots. The article suggests my sovereigns should be like spotted d1ck and 999 coins rarely effected. My experience is spots on 999 coins. i have seen Double Eagles, Panda and Libertads. The theory says one thing, the practice another.

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

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I read you can remove those red spots using a fire burner (or how you call such a burner that you use in the kitchen for making créme brulée 🤣).....go over the spot with the burner off and on....during a few seconds => spots should go away and never come back......not done it before...maybe there is a youtube film ?

 

edit : on youtube some with soda/baking powder...

edit edit 🙂 : I also read that at NGC they use the burner....if it is true ?? ... if someone from NGC could confirm ? 😀😜

 

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1 hour ago, JunkBond said:

Very recent research in China suggests that the spots can also result from small spots of Silver, almost always found in Gold, reacting with Sulphur in the atmosphere.

If this is the case, a quick dip might remove them?

Profile picture with thanks to Carl Vernon

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50 minutes ago, sixgun said:

@Elements yes i saw that article - what i was thinking is, i have a fair few sovereigns - can't recall any spots. The article suggests my sovereigns should be like spotted d1ck and 999 coins rarely effected. My experience is spots on 999 coins. i have seen Double Eagles, Panda and Libertads. The theory says one thing, the practice another.

Yes interesting question. Is it actually that the whole surface has toned on an old sovereign compared to just small patches on a .999 coin, the small patches visually looking more apparent against the much brighter surrounding areas? I’m not entirely sure

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1 hour ago, sixgun said:

@Elements yes i saw that article - what i was thinking is, i have a fair few sovereigns - can't recall any spots. The article suggests my sovereigns should be like spotted d1ck and 999 coins rarely effected. My experience is spots on 999 coins. i have seen Double Eagles, Panda and Libertads. The theory says one thing, the practice another.

I second your observations; only minor spots on 22ct or 0.900 gold.

10 minutes ago, Elements said:

Yes interesting question. Is it actually that the whole surface has toned on an old sovereign compared to just small patches on a .999 coin, the small patches visually looking more apparent against the much brighter surrounding areas? I’m not entirely sure

In my experience the toning on e.g. sovereigns is different to copper spots and gentle restoration can deal with the copper oxidation.

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Copper spots on my sovereign didn't go away and I don't know what NCS does to deal with them but they can remove them from proofs without a trace. 

 

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I have seen a video of a big German PM dealer who said red spots on gold coins can come from tiny silver particles in the air at the mint. I have seen another video where someone from Munze Osterreich was interviewed saying the air between their gold an silver production is somehow separated. So it seems it has nothing to do with copper.

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This has been a really interesting discussion - thanks to all for joining in.  Now - I am tempted to rub  the Goddards silver polish onto the surface as suggested @sovereignsteve ! It is a bullion coin with a few nicks ....so i was never tempted to grade this Libertad ...so maybe not much to lose 🙏

I did go back and found more red / blueish spotting on another 2015 Libertad so maybe  that was a year they changed the alloy, i don't know. A few months ago I sent a different BU Libertad through NCS to NGC and they did an incredible job removing the red spots ....so they can be “cured”.  Whether spots can come back after their initial removal is another topic - anyone had that nightmare!. .?  

  

 

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UPDATE !!  @sovereignsteve / everyone - I gave it a good dousing and wipe with silver polish, took a deep breath - and here are the results. Spots dissolved, gold intact, and a great start to Sunday morning ! Here is a before and after picture   

Honestly I feel like the guy in the Fosters ad who phones in for advice and gets a solution; that is the joy of this Forum👍😊

 

Whether I would do this on a proof Libertad is debatable , as you need to rub the polish on and off the coin ...but for bullion coins that I just want to keep nice - I will do it again.  

Finally - whether this was copper or silver , I don’t know. Maybe these polishes work on both. 

  

 

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1 hour ago, Lindeman said:

Finally - whether this was copper or silver , I don’t know. Maybe these polishes work on both. 

You still have those small ones near the edge, which I suspect could be copper, or maybe deeper silver impurity.

The smudges near the centre I would guess would be silver toning. I can't believe there would be that much copper on the surface of the coin whereas it is easier to believe in silver surface contamination, in a mint such as the Mexican.

All silver polish/dips are acidic in nature to varying degrees and I can't remember off the top of my head how soluble copper is in various acids.

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Must admit Steve i rubbed the centre of the coin more than the outer edges - so I never  really noticed those ones. 

Was amazing though to see how black the cleaning cloth came up - suggesting quite a bit of silver contamination.

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2 hours ago, Lindeman said:

Was amazing though to see how black the cleaning cloth came up - suggesting quite a bit of silver contamination.

No, that's the tiny metal particles you rubbed of – most of it will be gold: metal dust is highly absorbent of light and always appears dark grey to black. Compare to Brasso on a brass plate. 

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9 hours ago, Lindeman said:

Whether I would do this on a proof Libertad is debatable , as you need to rub the polish on and off the coin ...but for bullion coins that I just want to keep nice - I will do it again.

Unfortunately, what you have now is a "cleaned" coin.  It looks like you just rubbed part of the surface off.  The raised areas (the eagles) on the BU libertad have a frosted like finish.  In your after shot they look polished now, and you can clearly see the cleaned areas of the field.  I'm glad you are happy with the result, but if you do ever decide to sell the coin, please list it as cleaned.  I would be pissed if I purchased a coin listed as a BU gold libertad and it turned out to be cleaned like this.  I would prefer red spots to cleaned.

I also consider Libertad BU gold to be semi numismatic because of the low mintages.  Though 2015 isn't a super rare year for the BU coins, that is still 1 of <5000 and would have had a premium.

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