Jump to content
  • The above Banner is a Sponsored Banner.

    Upgrade to Premium Membership to remove this Banner & All Google Ads. For full list of Premium Member benefits Click HERE.

  • Join The Silver Forum

    The Silver Forum is one of the largest and best loved silver and gold precious metals forums in the world, established since 2014. Join today for FREE! Browse the sponsor's topics (hidden to guests) for special deals and offers, check out the bargains in the members trade section and join in with our community reacting and commenting on topic posts. If you have any questions whatsoever about precious metals collecting and investing please join and start a topic and we will be here to help with our knowledge :) happy stacking/collecting. 21,000+ forum members and 1 million+ forum posts. For the latest up to date stats please see the stats in the right sidebar when browsing from desktop. Sign up for FREE to view the forum with reduced ads. 

Gold / silver money standard, will it ever happen?


LoveSilver

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, Groundup said:

Well that kool aid is mixed with a dose of  property paid off in full... good health... secure stack... Good income. No debt.. crypto..and most importantly... knowledge. Thank you very much. So I'd say.. a  high risk investment that I can afford to lose.. iis what!!!  

 

Could you give page references for the parts of the Kinesis blueprint that offer this?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 123
  • Created
  • Last Reply
4 minutes ago, mr1030 said:

because of you not letting it go.

 

2 hours ago, HawkHybrid said:

(didn't @sixgun create a kinesis thread somewhere)

it's not me that's unwilling to let it go.

 

6 minutes ago, mr1030 said:

 I would hazard a guess, that I probably spent more time and effort looking for that one piece of information for you

thank you for giving up your time to answer,

I wasn't expecting a lengthy answer.

in case people haven't guessed kinesis is not

the be and end all to my question. it was

supposed to be a small part to highlight a point.

 

and I get this :

11 hours ago, swAgger said:

I have no interest in taking part of promoting directly to you or spoonfeeding you information.

 

11 hours ago, swAgger said:

You have already formed and passed judgement without being bothered to look into it.

 

2 hours ago, Groundup said:

It's up to you to do due diligence  and read though the documents.

for the record: I have absolutely no interest in reading

up on kinesis.

 

all I wanted to point out is that it takes money/resources

to keep a gold standard going. it's not 'free' as people

are claiming it is.

 

HH

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Kinesis currency system is an extension of the Allocated Bullion Exchange - the ABX is a trading platform where gold and silver are traded. The bullion is stored in third party vaults in multiple centres - London, New York, Hong Kong, Dubai, Singapore, Zurich and Australia. These are vaults such as Brink's-Matt. 

i have personally bought and sold bullion on the ABX. i didn't have any issues - it has been going for several years now. https://abx.com

The ABX got into a relationship with BullionCoin back in 2017 - this was to be a digital currency - this is how long i have been involved. Then there was a falling out about who had a claim on the metal - BullionCoin said they should have claim on the metal - the ABX said it must be the customers who bought it. The ABX then regrouped and developed Kinesis. The driving force behind this is to break the rigging of the precious metal markets which one might argue is the reason they could be attacked - but Kinesis knows that.

Gold and silver is bought - it is stored in the vaulting system but title of ownership issued is the KAU (gold) and KAG (silver). This is a record on the blockchain. These records are held in the owners Kinesis wallets. The Kinesis coins can be sent between wallets - to just send coins, to buy something and when you sell the coins on the Kinesis Exchange. A debit card will be launched later this summer. This is being done with Contis for UK and EU and Unified Signal in the US. You will be able to use your card wherever you see the VISA and Master card signs. Coins will be sold on the fly for the necessary fiat to pay the bill. From memory coins are divisible to 5 decimal places - so you only sell exactly as much as you need.Transferring coins between wallets comes with a transaction fee - this fee drives the system. The difference between Kinesis and everything else i know is coins are fully backed by gold or silver. They are title of ownership. Those contributing to the system get a share of the transaction fees. 

So if you hold coins you will get a holder's yield - you put money into the system. If you mint (create) coins by buying gold and silver in the Kinesis Mint you will get a yield starting when you sell/spend/transfer the coins to another wallet and then a share of the fees indefinitely. If you put money into the start up by buying KVT's you will get an indefinite yield. There are various yields which are a share of the transaction fees. 

So yes the system needs coins to be minted and move between wallets. If there were no movements and a tiny volume the system would eventually fail. If a business had no customers it would fail. When you look at the turnover (velocity) of the majority of cryptos it is mind boggling - Kinesis only needs a fraction of this to give good returns.

Kinesis has done several deals in Indonesia which involve the government, Post Office, Commodities Exchange.... - so they have strong backing. The PM of neighbouring Malaysia very recently came out saying SE Asia needs a gold backed currency. Kinesis has recently been very active in Africa. They also have been active in the Gulf which includes Royal families there. 

The idea is sound - getting involved is encouraged by the yield system (profit share). It is the best asset backed digital currency system i have seen. The Minter's yield has the potential to suck in many $billions in gold and silver.

We will see - i am very optimistic.

 

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are some here who are enthusiastic - there are some here who are not. i get the impression minds have been made up in which case there is no point spending time and energy unmaking them - they have to unmake themselves and never get involved. 

The system is complicated but so are many systems - you deal with the parts you need to deal with and then it gets much simpler. 

The proof of the pudding is always in the eating. Fingers crossed Kinesis kicks off 1st July.

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Groundup said:

One guy on here, has said in his opinion, Veritas are not  trustworthy auditors. He gave no more details. Should I be concerned about his opinion.

i am double checking this so there is no misrepresentation of the truth. Back soon hopefully.

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

a bit off topic but just a thought:

 

kinesis is not as suitable as a savings system.

my argument is that if kinesis had customers but

the majority were (gold bug) savers then whilst

new currency would be created, insufficient

currency flow would lead to not enough money

via transaction fees to maintain the system.

ie buy and hold is not long term sustainable?

 

HH

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, HawkHybrid said:

a bit off topic but just a thought:

kinesis is not as suitable as a savings system. my argument is that if kinesis had customers but the majority were (gold bug) savers then whilst  new currency would be created, insufficient currency flow would lead to not enough money via transaction fees to maintain the system. ie buy and hold is not long term sustainable?

HH

If a bank only had savers and no-one borrowed money the bank would be unsuitable for savers as it would not generate the revenue to pay the savers. 

Yes if people only held coins the system would become nonviable as the savings and loan bank would become non-viable. In practice it seems unlikely that people will not be selling/buying/spending/trading. 

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The ABX use Inspectorate which was acquired by Bureau Veritas in 2010.

Tony says that 'At 02:00 [he] refurnished [his] office with stuff [he] reappropriated. - Sounds like reappropriated is euphemism for another word. 

Anyway what is he saying - that Veritas will be stealing the gold and silver or will misrepresent the amount in the vaults or will work with members of Kinesis to steal the gold and silver?

The ABX is either crooked from the start and working with a crooked auditor - or they have worked with this auditor for several years and all is well. i won't be losing sleep.

 

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, sixgun said:

If a bank only had savers and no-one borrowed money the bank would be unsuitable for savers as it would not generate the revenue to pay the savers. 

Yes if people only held coins the system would become nonviable as the savings and loan bank would become non-viable. In practice it seems unlikely that people will not be selling/buying/spending/trading. 

 

I was thinking current bitcoin transactions by value,

as a percentage of the market cap.

(the rumour is that people are more likely to hold

bitcoin as opposed to trade bitcoin)

 

HH

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, HawkHybrid said:

 

I was thinking current bitcoin transactions by value, as a percentage of the market cap. (the rumour is that people are more likely to hold bitcoin as opposed to trade bitcoin)

HH

If you look at https://coinmarketcap.com/ you can work out the velocity of the various coins - 

Bitcoin Bitcoin $161,849,744,483 $9,110.06 $15,502,866,555 17,766,050 BTC

The value of all BTC is $162 billion of which $15.5 billion turned over in the last 24 hours. So BTC has a daily velocity of 15.5/162 = 9.5%

So in 10.5 days the equivalent of all the BTC turnover. 

Some of the other coins are a lot faster. LTC has a daily velocity of 25%. Tether which is the USD in crypto form has a daily velocity of 500%.

We must remember that BTC and most of its ilk have no practical use. There is very little being bought with BTC - it is far too volatile. 

If BTC came to have a practical use then the velocity would very likely increase. We see the difference between Tether and the other top coins. Personally i have employed the idea that Kinesis coins would turnover over once a week - this is a 15% velocity - not startling. This still gives me a happy return on my actual and proposed investments.

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, HawkHybrid said:

 

I was thinking current bitcoin transactions by value,

as a percentage of the market cap.

(the rumour is that people are more likely to hold

bitcoin as opposed to trade bitcoin)

 

HH

I have heard that said as well, but then I would expect many to hold when BTC price is on the rise as its been for the last few months.  But like any commodity, there will be plenty of trading to make money on the rise and fall of price.  With all the money being spent by Bakkt, Gemini, JPM, TDAmeritrade and others to establish futures markets and ETF's, those entities certainly seem to expect to make significant profits on a robust trading market.

As a related point, one use case scenario for Kinesis velocity is it's use as a stable coin for traders as they rotate out of BTC or other cryptos during price volatility.  Rather then Tether or other stable coins, they can hold KAU or KAG and earn interest on it while they wait to re-enter BTC.  

I am not a day trader in BTC or any crypto, so I have no personal experience if this would be a viable strategy or not.  I'm certainly looking forward to seeing if this occurs once Kinesis goes live.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 16/06/2019 at 21:46, Ryland said:

I don’t agree.  Look at the Nazis taking from the Jews, United States taking from the Indians, England taking from Africa, India, Asia... basically everyone!  Was any of that morally justified?  What’s important is the rule of law.  Moral and ethical laws written for all time.  One might even call that religion?   Moral and ethical law and culture are key to having a stable civilization, out of that should come sound money.  This is actually the key question of humanity and brings up old arguments that have been long forgotten such as usury as defined by the charge of ANY interest on money lent. 

You seem to have forgotten the Spanish, Belgiums, Italians , Zulu's, Ghanians, Arabs, Mughals, Japanese, Egyptians, Turks, Scots, Swedes, Irish, Indians, Aztecs ; Barbarys etc ..... I cannot think of a single existing nation  that has never tried to exploit others in some way or the other ... including their own citizens.   Many of these defined their morality by laws which in retrospect we may disagree with but lets be a little more factual....   Money (PM or not ) is about the ability to trade with others;   Some religious groups tried to eliminate personal wealth but  learnt there is always a bad penny which tries to exploit others.  Some religious sectors have tried to avoid  "usury" ....but profit in other ways!!

That aside; there appears to be something wrong with our banking economy (and  our  "new ethics") and a return to gold/silver based systems may rebalance a system that has accelerated out of control - the only problem is that the super rich have an "extra special head start "on everyone else again!!! Which will penalise the majority again and continue to question the morality of the law makers and bankers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, PansPurse said:

See, tyhe thing is, all the amazing returns on Kinesis hinge on there being a huge number of transactions per day. That is, it works great if there's a mass amrket using it for high frequencies of trading. But the product itself is nebulousy hidden amongst dozens of pages of self-agrandizing bumf. If people have to put in that much work to properly understand the product then it's never going to have the mass-market that it needs in order to work.

The large, and immediate, number of transactions expect was a significant issue for me.  They also misguide the investor with comparison to Tether, where the velocity is 0.  It isnt used to buy any goods or services, just move balances around crypto exchanges.  We dont include shares, bonds, or derivatives trading in calculating GDP, and velocity is a product of that and currency supply, not a tangible value in its own right.  So while the original idea is sound, the sale pitch makes it all rather suspect. 

Then there was the very large amount of cash targeted, which main purpose is for market making, underwrite trading of the assets.  Theres also questionable holdings, many largest holder trace back to one ETH account, which is bit odd given the claims they wouldnt have large investors on board.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i agree i would not have used Tether as a comparative. This is why actual fiat is probably a better comparative as it is used for actual transactions. We can call this misleading but probably the best lager in the world is misleading. i have used 1/10th the projections - i have used a conservative velocity of once a week for my calculations. As i said these pan out well so if there has been some hype, which i would agree there has, that means nothing to me.

The velocity of Tether is not zero - why say it is. The currency is turning over 5x a day - it is not being used to buy stuff but to say the velocity is zero is not true. 

i am not clear what GDP has to do with anything.

In the Blueprint p42 it budgets for $40m market making capital out of a total budget of $200m. This is adequate but not excessive. Kinesis will be a market maker - they need adequate liquidity - i would say it is prudent and safe not suspicious.

Kinesis has not said that larger investors will be excluded. The policy has been to give the small guy a crack of the whip first. We have been told -  i can see large institutions are been courted - Royal families - we are being told albeit perhaps this is not widely public large sums are being deposited for Kcoins. i recall Maguire talking about a client of his who was in the market for 250 tonnes of gold to put into BullionCoin. BullionCoin has gone with the wind but i doubt Maguire's client has evaporated. 

Not my work:

 

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, sixgun said:

The velocity of Tether is not zero - why say it is. The currency is turning over 5x a day - it is not being used to buy stuff but to say the velocity is zero is not true. 

i am not clear what GDP has to do with anything.

Velocity is a product of PQ/M, where PQ is (Prices * Output), M is money supply.  PQ is analogue to GDP. 

Simply turning over money on exchange does not contribute to output, maybe profit might if not held on account.  Tether is IOU to shuffle around with, no goods or services, no productivity.  Kinesis is concerned with real economic transactions, Bob pays Alice for some goods or service using the token.

They use Tether as a demonstration to show how their velocity target looks reasonable, if a crypto can do 100%, why cant gold do 30% right?  However Kinesis forecast 800 Billion volume year one, 5 Trillion year two...  easy if just passing the token back and forth across the exchanges, more difficult if you need to have actual value in product or services. 

The ETH address 0x8366C4B3bA64730810FCeB475BeaCda321c47665 links to most the top 20 holders. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Martlet said:

Velocity is a product of PQ/M, where PQ is (Prices * Output), M is money supply.  PQ is analogue to GDP. 

Simply turning over money on exchange does not contribute to output, maybe profit might if not held on account.  Tether is IOU to shuffle around with, no goods or services, no productivity.  Kinesis is concerned with real economic transactions, Bob pays Alice for some goods or service using the token.

They use Tether as a demonstration to show how their velocity target looks reasonable, if a crypto can do 100%, why cant gold do 30% right?  However Kinesis forecast 800 Billion volume year one, 5 Trillion year two...  easy if just passing the token back and forth across the exchanges, more difficult if you need to have actual value in product or services. 

The ETH address 0x8366C4B3bA64730810FCeB475BeaCda321c47665 links to most the top 20 holders. 

i agreed Tether is not an example that should be singularly promoted - other examples BTC, LTC USD....

i will take a look at this ETH address - i expect these 20 top holders are within the Kinesis ABX organisation. i know Tom said he and his dad had pretty much gone all in on buying KVT's.

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have lived in a few countries, including places where silver and gold have traditionally been a store of household wealth.  my perspective is not that we will return to gold standard or that all fiat currencies will disappear but that holding gold and silver means you don't have to hedge your bets on one single currency. there is more choice now on which currency, particularly in volatile nations, people opt to hide under their mattress. it used to just be USDs, then euros, now it is RMB etc. in future possibly another currency. as currencies rise and descend or banknotes become obsolete, holding precious metals means you don't have to bank on one currency because it is exchangeable with all.  I think that is the most realistic scenario for a crisis situation; not that you will be exchanging silver for toilet rolls but that you will be able to exchange it for whatever currency is acceptable at that time.

ugh sorry for overuse of the word currency!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, aggiyama said:

I have lived in a few countries, including places where silver and gold have traditionally been a store of household wealth.  my perspective is not that we will return to gold standard or that all fiat currencies will disappear but that holding gold and silver means you don't have to hedge your bets on one single currency. there is more choice now on which currency, particularly in volatile nations, people opt to hide under their mattress. it used to just be USDs, then euros, now it is RMB etc. in future possibly another currency. as currencies rise and descend or banknotes become obsolete, holding precious metals means you don't have to bank on one currency because it is exchangeable with all.  I think that is the most realistic scenario for a crisis situation; not that you will be exchanging silver for toilet rolls but that you will be able to exchange it for whatever currency is acceptable at that time.

ugh sorry for overuse of the word currency!

toilet roll being the former fiat...lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Cookies & terms of service

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. By continuing to use this site you consent to the use of cookies and to our Privacy Policy & Terms of Use