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A little help with my Saudi Gold Guinea


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I’m in the same boat as @BackyardBullion wanting to expand my stack and/or collection to include exotic world coins such as this beautiful calligraphic Saudi guinea. The major problem with unfamiliar world coins, however, is that even reputable dealers are out of their depth when handling such coins compared to British sovereigns and Chinese Pandas.

Edited by Serendipity
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39 minutes ago, Serendipity said:

I’m in the same boat as @BackyardBullion wanting to expand my stack and/or collection to include exotic world coins such as this beautiful calligraphic Saudi guinea. The major problem with unfamiliar world coins, however, is that even reputable dealers are out of their depth when handling such coins compared to British sovereigns and Chinese Pandas.

Marc has a nice one on sale but it obviously comes with a premium

IMG_9126.jpg.7c3cb328100cd713452b4695266

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15 minutes ago, lightjaw said:

My one...

20190601_082919.jpg

20190601_082931.jpg

Strike on yours seems dodgy pal, sorry :(

I’m by no means an expert on Saudi coins but it’s amazing how clued up we’ve become on what constitutes a genuine Saudi guinea in a short space of time. Thanks for sharing your beautiful calligraphic coin! Certainly reignited my interest in exotic world coins! Would love to know what the Arabic means.

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25 minutes ago, Serendipity said:

I’m by no means an expert on Saudi coins but it’s amazing how clued up we’ve become on what constitutes a genuine Saudi guinea in a short space of time. Thanks for sharing!

That's what makes this forum so great – the combined wisdom of the silverforum makes it possible. 

32 minutes ago, Serendipity said:

[the] Saudi gold guinea [...] what a truly magnificent world coin! It’s the same size as a British gold sovereign.

I am not sure if anyone has started a thread about sovereign sized gold coins (similar to the 20 Franc one) but South African Pond and Peruvian Libra come to my mind...

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1 hour ago, Serendipity said:

I’m by no means an expert on Saudi coins but it’s amazing how clued up we’ve become on what constitutes a genuine Saudi guinea in a short space of time. Thanks for sharing your beautiful calligraphic coin! Certainly reignited my interest in exotic world coins! Would love to know what the Arabic means.

Obverse

Lettering: 
ملك المملكة العربية السعودية
عبد العزيز بن عبد الرحمن بن فيصل آل سعود

Translation: 
King of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
'Abd al-'Aziz bin 'Abd al-Rahman bin Faisal Al Sa'ud

Reverse

Lettering: 
جنيه عربي سعودي واحد
ضرب في المكرّمة مكة
١٣٧٠
١

Translation: 
One Saudi Arabian Pound
Struck in the Holy City of Mekka
1370
1

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BYB

 

I concur with the above. I have a friend who has a couple of these as part of a collection of Middle Eastern coins. The two he has are very cleanly struck and quite different to the ones pictured 

Not my circus, not my monkeys

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Slightly off topic, but my friend who has the Middle Eastern coin collection fled Kuwait when Iraq invaded. His house in Kuwait was overrun and occupied and I think they tried to use it as a defensive position.  

When he returned post liberation, he fully expected to find his coin collection gone. The soldiers looted things like TVs, Satellite dishes etc and left the house in a dreadful mess, but missed the coins which were in a box in the basement

Not my circus, not my monkeys

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@Fathallazf, @ilovesilverireallydo, @lightjaw can any of you explain why there are still Paris mintmarks on the coin if according to the inscription it was struck in Mekka?

i understand that the dies and patterns were made by the Monnaie de Paris but where were the circulation issues actually minted?

Below Patter PR65

IMG_1072.PNG.cda8ade9b9093bcd9c7944300bdb3adb.PNG

IMG_1071.PNG.00519d15156b17c794ba9bdd188dacd5.PNG

"Abd al-Aziz Bin Sa'ud (Ibn Sa'ud) gold Proof Pattern Guinea (Riyal) AH 1370 (1950) PR65 NGC, Paris mint, 7.98g, KM-Pn6 (this coin). An extraordinarily rare gold pattern issue, this Gem piece is among only three known examples produced by the Paris mint for approval by the Saudi royal household. The other two examples currently reside in the Paris Mint collection. Designed as a trial for the newly established United Kingdom's first gold coinage, the present offering, though denominated as a "Guinea", maintains exactly the same weight standard as the British Sovereign, and features a layout virtually identical to that adopted for the official trade issues, though the denomination is written on the reverse without the typical diacritical marks used to indicate vowels. This piece further displays a truly flawless strike with broad reeded rims and lustrous fields evincing clear die polish lines, yet nigh a blemish to obscure its genuine beauty. Previously sold by Baldwin's for a hammer of approximately $161,000 in their auction of April 2012, and certainly among the greatest rarities of pattern issues produced by world mints in the last century, the auctioning of such a specimen truly represents a one-in-a-lifetime opportunity that will spark spirited bidding amongst collectors of world gold patterns and Saudi Arabian coinage alike."

https://coins.ha.com/itm/saudi-arabia/saudi-arabia-abd-al-aziz-bin-sa-ud-ibn-sa-ud-gold-proof-pattern-guinea-riyal-ah-1370-1950-pr65-ngc-/a/3066-30427.s

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1 hour ago, augur said:

@Fathallazf, @ilovesilverireallydo, @lightjaw can any of you explain why there are still Paris mintmarks on the coin if according to the inscription it was struck in Mekka?

i understand that the dies and patterns were made by the Monnaie de Paris but where were the circulation issues actually minted?

Below Patter PR65

IMG_1072.PNG.cda8ade9b9093bcd9c7944300bdb3adb.PNG

IMG_1071.PNG.00519d15156b17c794ba9bdd188dacd5.PNG

"Abd al-Aziz Bin Sa'ud (Ibn Sa'ud) gold Proof Pattern Guinea (Riyal) AH 1370 (1950) PR65 NGC, Paris mint, 7.98g, KM-Pn6 (this coin). An extraordinarily rare gold pattern issue, this Gem piece is among only three known examples produced by the Paris mint for approval by the Saudi royal household. 

Details are very sketchy as far as I know. The info I have is limited to a few sites that I have researched. 

There isn’t clear info on both issues, as there was a 1950 issue AND a 1957 issue. 

Originally they were supposed to have been struck at the Saudi Royal Mint in Mecca, however I believe the 1950 issue was actually struck in Lahore, Pakistan. Only the 57 was struck in Mecca. 

 

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2 hours ago, augur said:

@Fathallazf, @ilovesilverireallydo, @lightjaw can any of you explain why there are still Paris mintmarks on the coin if according to the inscription it was struck in Mekka?

i understand that the dies and patterns were made by the Monnaie de Paris but where were the circulation issues actually minted?

Below Patter PR65

IMG_1072.PNG.cda8ade9b9093bcd9c7944300bdb3adb.PNG

IMG_1071.PNG.00519d15156b17c794ba9bdd188dacd5.PNG

"Abd al-Aziz Bin Sa'ud (Ibn Sa'ud) gold Proof Pattern Guinea (Riyal) AH 1370 (1950) PR65 NGC, Paris mint, 7.98g, KM-Pn6 (this coin). An extraordinarily rare gold pattern issue, this Gem piece is among only three known examples produced by the Paris mint for approval by the Saudi royal household. The other two examples currently reside in the Paris Mint collection. Designed as a trial for the newly established United Kingdom's first gold coinage, the present offering, though denominated as a "Guinea", maintains exactly the same weight standard as the British Sovereign, and features a layout virtually identical to that adopted for the official trade issues, though the denomination is written on the reverse without the typical diacritical marks used to indicate vowels. This piece further displays a truly flawless strike with broad reeded rims and lustrous fields evincing clear die polish lines, yet nigh a blemish to obscure its genuine beauty. Previously sold by Baldwin's for a hammer of approximately $161,000 in their auction of April 2012, and certainly among the greatest rarities of pattern issues produced by world mints in the last century, the auctioning of such a specimen truly represents a one-in-a-lifetime opportunity that will spark spirited bidding amongst collectors of world gold patterns and Saudi Arabian coinage alike."

https://coins.ha.com/itm/saudi-arabia/saudi-arabia-abd-al-aziz-bin-sa-ud-ibn-sa-ud-gold-proof-pattern-guinea-riyal-ah-1370-1950-pr65-ngc-/a/3066-30427.s

I honestly have no idea @augur.  I found this gov website that talks about the history of the currency in the Saudi Kingdom. This specific coin is mentioned, but they didn't mention anything about the place of production. (I might have missed it as i read it briefly) 

I have a friend in Saudi Arabia, i will ask him if he can ask more about this matter at a jeweler or at their mint itself and let you know if he gets back with any info.  

http://www.sama.gov.sa/en-US/Currency/Pages/HistoricalInfo.aspx

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3 hours ago, Fathallazf said:

I honestly have no idea @augur.  I found this gov website that talks about the history of the currency in the Saudi Kingdom. This specific coin is mentioned, but they didn't mention anything about the place of production. (I might have missed it as i read it briefly) 

http://www.sama.gov.sa/en-US/Currency/Pages/HistoricalInfo.aspx

Great resource albeit indeed a long read. Found the respective passage:

 

The main concern for Saudi Arabia, after putting the Silver Saudi Riyal into circulation, was to maintain its value against the British Sovereign; the most important Gold currency at that time. [...] Moreover, between 1349H- 1352 H (1931-1933G) Britain and the USA abandoned the Gold Standard causing Gold prices to go up affecting exchange rate of the Silver Saudi Riyal against the English Gold Sovereign as applied by the Najdi-Hijazi monetary system.  

As no local central monetary authority existed to control and regulate issuance of currency, coins were minted abroad and brought to the country in separate batches often in irregular periods of time.

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6 minutes ago, ilovesilverireallydo said:

No, but on my list! 1957 gold guinea or 40 Riyals. Pakistan mint too. 

Just a quick question. Is there a Saudi mint of the same coin. 

The problem I have is, I searched all over the net and cant seem to find any info. 

Like this one seems different from the other, though, I don't know what to look for.

1147_z588.jpg

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4 minutes ago, Xander said:

Just a quick question. Is there a Saudi mint of the same coin. 

The problem I have is, I searched all over the net and cant seem to find any info. 

Like this one seems different from the other, though, I don't know what to look for.

1147_z588.jpg

As far as I know there are two issues. A Lahore mint issue and a Philadelphia issue. The philly issue was used in the 50s to pay for oil. 

Info on. Saudi gold coins is scare and often mixed up sadly

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10 minutes ago, Xander said:

Just a quick question. Is there a Saudi mint of the same coin. 

The problem I have is, I searched all over the net and cant seem to find any info. 

Like this one seems different from the other, though, I don't know what to look for.

1147_z588.jpg

I may be wrong on the philly one, still looking for info, I know that some sources call this 40 Riyal but the denomination displayed is 1 riyal.

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22 minutes ago, augur said:

Great resource albeit indeed a long read. Found the respective passage:

 

The main concern for Saudi Arabia, after putting the Silver Saudi Riyal into circulation, was to maintain its value against the British Sovereign; the most important Gold currency at that time. [...] Moreover, between 1349H- 1352 H (1931-1933G) Britain and the USA abandoned the Gold Standard causing Gold prices to go up affecting exchange rate of the Silver Saudi Riyal against the English Gold Sovereign as applied by the Najdi-Hijazi monetary system.  

As no local central monetary authority existed to control and regulate issuance of currency, coins were minted abroad and brought to the country in separate batches often in irregular periods of time.

Totally missed it! I am happy it was a bit helpful! 

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2 minutes ago, ilovesilverireallydo said:

may be wrong on the philly one, still looking for info, I know that some sources call this 40 Riyal but the denomination displayed is 1 riyal

I thought it looked a bit different from the other coin...If only I could translate Arabic.

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3 minutes ago, ilovesilverireallydo said:

I know that some sources call this 40 Riyal but the denomination displayed is 1 riyal.

They pegged 40 silver Ryal to 1 gold Guinea but since silver was the breads d butter for trading the supposedly stuck with the silver equivalent  (again from @Fathallazf's link)

Early in the month of Safar 1372H., the Gold Saudi Riyal was put into circulation. Exchange rate for this Riyal was defined at Gold Saudi Riyal 1 = Silver Saudi Riyals 40, ie; the equivalent of (10.90) dollars in agreement with the targeted exchange rate of the Saudi Riyals against the US Dollar (US$ 1 =  Saudi Riyal 3.70).

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4 minutes ago, augur said:

They pegged 40 silver Ryal to 1 gold Guinea but since silver was the breads d butter for trading the supposedly stuck with the silver equivalent  (again from @Fathallazf's link)

Early in the month of Safar 1372H., the Gold Saudi Riyal was put into circulation. Exchange rate for this Riyal was defined at Gold Saudi Riyal 1 = Silver Saudi Riyals 40, ie; the equivalent of (10.90) dollars in agreement with the targeted exchange rate of the Saudi Riyals against the US Dollar (US$ 1 =  Saudi Riyal 3.70).

That explains the discrepancy in descriptions

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