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14 hours ago, Pipers said:

HMRC also make it clear that a seller who sells via buy it now is a trader. 

why? that is totally ridiculous. please provide evidence of this.

an investor or collector will generally buy coins at a fixed price, why should selling for a fixed price be regarded as trading and not liquidating an investment or selling part of a collection?

this "buy it now" sale could be many years after buying the coin, how can that be trading?

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9 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

why? that is totally ridiculous. please provide evidence of this.

an investor or collector will generally buy coins at a fixed price, why should selling for a fixed price be regarded as trading and not liquidating an investment or selling part of a collection?

this "buy it now" sale could be many years after buying the coin, how can that be trading?

This is what Ebay are saying HMRC are tracking, someone who sells continually buy it now is going to come under the radar.  If you are not trading then you will be ok as you are looking to swap a sovereign for a better quality one it will be obvious to the HMRC if they pick you out.  Though if you are trading then you will have a hard time explaining.  

This is what i was getting at the other week, the Tories (Osborne) said they were going after the TAX dodgers after the financial crash, we all thought they meant the rich how wrong we were, what they really meant was the poor who made a few pound, typical of the Tories.  I have heard it being called the rag and bone Tax.  They are now charging people to go to the tip and throw things away so you get taxed there too, so what do you do with the items dig a hole in the garden and throw them in, the f-ckers. 

 Remember Osbourne let all of the TAX dodgers off paying the tax they owed that was stashed in Switzerland etc. Also this new tax will stop free market activity so much for the conservative party being free marketeers.  All for one self, keep the middle class down and the workers in the gutter,  if they were free marketeers they would encourage the poor/ workers/ middle class to trade increasing trading activity.  Instead what they really want to do is stifle trading activity forcing people to be submissive buying there products.          

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3 minutes ago, Pipers said:

someone who sells continually buy it now is going to come under the radar.

That is fair enough. The crucial word here is "continually". You didn't make that clear in the post I was quoting.

Someone who constantly has items listed on BIN is clearly trading. The collectors who list a few coins here and there shouldn't be labelled as such.

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6 hours ago, Pipers said:

HMRC are tracking, someone who sells continually buy it now is going to come under the radar

I always thought "under the radar" was a good thing, meaning going unnoticed.

Under the spotlight on the other hand ...

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Members have to going some to breech the £85k VAT limit - so we can forget that for the vast majority and if they did breech it they are selling second hand most of the time so could use the margin relief scheme.

They need to use family member allowances if agreeable - this is standard practice tax mitigation. You could put - i am posting this for my son who is selling.... my wife who is selling... my 33rd twice removed removed cousin is selling this....

If one were deemed to be trading, how much are they going to be making? - i can't imagine most are making that much - i would set as much as i could against the profits - my computer, mobile, internet connection, printer, home office, car mileage allowance, silver forum membership, books, accountants, testing equipment, make private pension contributions, gloves, packing material, trips to coin fairs and anything else i might think of - i expect i could get rid of my profit - oops there's a loss - let's roll it over the loss into next year...

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Sort of interesting that there is even an option to sell precious metals for a profit without paying any kind of tax on the sale in the UK. That actually makes silver/gold a reasonable vehicle for long term saving if you can minimize the front-loaded tax. 

Here in the States, profits from gold, silver bullion coins or even US "junk" coins have to be reported for capital gains tax. Doesn't seem to apply across the pond, but US gains tax always made me wonder why heavy stackers are so convinced that precious metals "preserve wealth" as Uncle Sam takes 20+% of the un-adjusted dollar profits from the buy/sell spread, and that's even if silver prices don't keep up with inflation at a given sell point.  Sure, small-time stuff can go under the radar if one is less than scrupulous, but the folks trying to divest a life-time of stacking in their golden years are going to raise flags. 

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4 hours ago, sixgun said:

Members have to going some to breech the £85k VAT limit - so we can forget that for the vast majority and if they did breech it they are selling second hand most of the time so could use the margin relief scheme.

They need to use family member allowances if agreeable - this is standard practice tax mitigation. You could put - i am posting this for my son who is selling.... my wife who is selling... my 33rd twice removed removed cousin is selling this....

If one were deemed to be trading, how much are they going to be making? - i can't imagine most are making that much - i would set as much as i could against the profits - my computer, mobile, internet connection, printer, home office, car mileage allowance, silver forum membership, books, accountants, testing equipment, make private pension contributions, gloves, packing material, trips to coin fairs and anything else i might think of - i expect i could get rid of my profit - oops there's a loss - let's roll it over the loss into next year...

Your right there six-gun.  I was moaning about the £1000 tax allowance the Tories brought in in 2016 before that most small time sellers who sold a few things were left alone. 

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8 hours ago, Pipers said:

Your right there six-gun.  I was moaning about the £1000 tax allowance the Tories brought in in 2016 before that most small time sellers who sold a few things were left alone. 

Previously small sellers were left alone but acting illegally if they didn't submit self assessment.  Now they are left alone legally under the allowance.  Which one do you actually prefer?

 

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Funny you are trying to set a trap.  I will answer with this

wealth and privilege influence policy that suits itself, policy that makes it legal for wealth and privilege to not pay tax or a reduced amount of tax.  We always here 'its not illegal'  but it is illegal when it's one of the masses. 

I'll ask, who do you prefer paying tax, wealth and privilege paying on wealth plus dividends, rents or the masses paying tax on earnings. Or maybe both pay. 

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@PipersNo trap, simple question was meant to ponder on the reasons for this particular tax rule.  I'm trying to make the point its not an additional tax, its a tidy up of tax legalities at this end of the tax rules.  I didn't say those low levels of trade/income should be taxed or not, i veer towards not, but that just leave loophole for those who think it OK to exploit such areas.  

I believe we should have fewer taxes, the breadth and complexities are what give all the loopholes in the first place.  Taxes should simple, flat-ish, equal and focus on raising revenue, not to manipulate behaviour (accepting it may be only tool government has sometimes).  A lot is said about tax avoidance/evasion that isn't so, often myths perpetuated by the left that want more tax, particularly on wealth, for the sake of taxation.   

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5 hours ago, Martlet said:

@PipersN

 

I believe we should have fewer taxes, the breadth and complexities are what give all the loopholes in the first place.  Taxes should simple, flat-ish, equal and focus on raising revenue, not to manipulate behaviour (accepting it may be only tool government has sometimes).  A lot is said about tax avoidance/evasion that isn't so, often myths perpetuated by the left that want more tax, particularly on wealth, for the sake of taxation.   

We must remember TAX was and is a temporary law brought in for war.  There is nothing stopping the Government altering legislation to a 2 band flat tax plus tax on wealth and a tax on rentier!  This would be easy.  With the words no exclusions  rather than naming what is included.  The left want people to hate the wealthy that's how they get elected if you look back they talk left but govern centre. No point getting rid of the rich how would the left get elected then. 

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3 minutes ago, Bullionbill01 said:

Completely agree

I'm sorry, but as I have previously said if anyone sells a bunch of items then puts them against someone else's allowance when that person they put it against had absolutely nothing to do with the trading is asking for trouble.

a) it is questionably legal

b) it is morally grey at best

c) really worth the risk of getting challenged by the authorities?

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Just now, Bullionbill01 said:

Nope it’s well within the laws of tax - I’m a higher rate tax holder - sold a holiday home and few months prior put it in my wife’s name as she’s a lower tax band payer - paid less CGT.  

 

Its just common sense 

That is very different to this situation though.

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Just now, Bullionbill01 said:

Then trade under a ltd and pay yourself in quarterly dividends @10% tax

Yes, this is one of the solutions, but an awful lot of work to go along with a LTD company 😉

My point here is that it's really not just as simple as saying my wife/kids used their allowance to sell those coins.

If it was something complete different to your original trade, like if we happened upon a bunch of candles for 10p per candle we could much more easily justify selling under Mrs BYB's trading allowance.

It's different, but the same trade over to someone else is asking for trouble. 99% chance nothing will come of it, 1% chance of being stung and having to defend yourself in court? 

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Just now, Bullionbill01 said:

Well if the extra work saves you ’000s in tax and worry then surely must be worth it?

only extra work is producing annual accounts and sounds like you’re already doing the basics by knowing how much tax you are liable for?

I don't know about you but the possibiliy of legal action with HMRC isn't very enticing and no sum of money saved via LTD companies or not would be worth it.

I have a number of friends who are directors of ltd companies and it's not quite as simple as just doing accounts too 😉

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3 minutes ago, Bullionbill01 said:

Well it is for me - I do contracting work and my ltd has 2 shareholders - me and the Mrs.  Once a year accounting and 10% tax on £150k revenue.

Simples

Good for you 😉 don't forget the corporation tax on that revenue too 😉

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2 hours ago, Bullionbill01 said:

Well it is for me - I do contracting work and my ltd has 2 shareholders - me and the Mrs.  Once a year accounting and 10% tax on £150k revenue.

Simples

Revenue or profit?  The limited company would pay 19% corporation tax on any profit.  Then you get £2000 of dividends tax free but then it’s 7.5% dividend tax on anything over that as a basic tax rate tax payer.  If you’re a higher rate tax payer it’s 32.5%.  So as a higher rate tax payer you’re paying affectively 51.5% tax to get any dividends out of your company after the first £2k.  Or 26.5% as a basic rate tax payer.  Not sure where your 10% comes from?

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1 hour ago, Bullionbill01 said:

Profit but as company is Jersey registered it doesn’t pay corporation tax and dividend payments don’t exceed the min income tax thresholds - rest goes into pension.

So yes it’s 7.5% tax (used to be 10%)

Very specific to your circumstances then.  Not everyone can register their company in Jersey.

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22 minutes ago, Goldhooked said:

Very specific to your circumstances then.  Not everyone can register their company in Jersey.

Yes indeed

Sounds like a nice loophole for those those that can exploit it.

Should it be allowed at all is the question. Seems a little unfair that someone earning £150,000 per year pays only 7.5% tax compared with your average tax payer in the UK.

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10 minutes ago, Bullionbill01 said:

Life is unfair - you could move to UAE and pay zero tax - free world

Ah yes, the ever practical solution many people have been looking for 😉😉

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1 minute ago, Bullionbill01 said:

Or Isle of Man / guernsey - even Ireland is only 10% corporation tax hence why all the big boys are there - google, facebook etc

Just saying there are options if tax is really crashing you profitability - UK is a rip off.

It's a sad state of affairs isnt it!

When a country has so many reasons for its citizens to leave!

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