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You know that Dubai is deeply in the red, don’t you ? Once the oil money has gone, back to desert they go....they got rich off the west and east’s buying their oil.

Edited by Oldun

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5 minutes ago, Oldun said:
  • United Arab Emirates
  • Oman
  • Bahrain
  • Qatar
  • Saudi Arabia
  • Kuwait
  • Bermuda
  • Cayman Islands
  • The Bahamas
  • Brunei

Deserts, no human rights, and island tax havens (that produce nothing and exist BECAUSE of taxes being paid elsewhere).....hardly good examples......

OTOH it's not a humaritarian crisis in any of these countries that has both the hard left and the hard right constantly at each others throats. Life is different in different parts of the world. I can't pretend I understand the religious aspects of life in most of these countries nor am I particularly motivated to do so, but we can and objectively measure the wealth created, and if they are doing this better than others then it is right that we try to learn from that.

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I have been to both Qatar and Dubai....you get thrown in jail for talking to a native woman, having a prang in a car and it doesn’t matter whose fault it is, if you are not a native, you are at fault (my brother-in-law was in charge of building Doha Airport and also the extension at Dubai Airport in charge of 3,000 guys with zero rights living in terrible on 300 bucks a month working in 50 degree heat 6 days a week from many countries, Lebanon, India, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Iraq, Pakistan etc etc....I would rather have taxes...but go ahead, please live there a while and let me know.

 

You need a government company sponsored license to buy alcohol in Doha and it can only be consumed in the home and is limited as to how much you can have a month.

Women get hospital treatment by men through a curtain for god sake !

Edited by Oldun

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4 minutes ago, Oldun said:

You know that Dubai is deeply in the red, don’t you ? Once the oil money has gone, back to desert they go....they got rich off the west and east’s buying their oil.

I don't really know what you problem with my views are. I believe societies with small government and low taxes are freer, and more prosperous and better for the majority of its members than societies that are government heavy and where everyone has a claim on their neighbour's wealth. People should be rewarded according to the combination of their talent and their work ethic, and then be allowed to keep the fruits of their labour... or indeed pay for their own failures when they get it wrong.  Don't you believe in the same fundamental thing, deep down? 

The 0% tax idea is just the reductionist argument to see if your views are logically consistent, and I'm perfectly happy to make the argument. 

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In Dubai, if a native Dubaian applies for a job, you have to give them a job, regardless of their ability. They sit there all day doing nothing but playing on their phones and there is nothing you can do about it.....productivity ? Lol

 

I do not have a problem, I am pointing out the inconsistences in your reasoning compared to reality in the examples you give. It is called a rebuttal in a civilised debate :)

Edited by Oldun

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10 minutes ago, Oldun said:

I have been to both Qatar and Dubai....you get thrown in jail for talking to a native woman, having a prang in a car and it doesn’t matter whose fault it is, if you are not a native, you are at fault (my brother-in-law was in charge of building Doha Airport and also the extension at Dubai Airport in charge of 3,000 guys with zero rights living in terrible on 300 bucks a month working in 50 degree heat 6 days a week from many countries, Lebanon, India, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Iraq, Pakistan etc etc....I would rather have taxes...but go ahead, please live there a while and let me know.

 

You need a government company sponsored license to buy alcohol in Doha and it can only be consumed in the home and is limited as to how much you can have a month.

Women get hospital treatment by men through a curtain for god sake !

At least the work was available to them. If there were better options then they would have been doing those instead. 

As harsh as it may sound, abject poverty is the natural state of man, and where you had nothing before then that is your starting point. It is only through economic collaboration and the division of labour that we raise ourselves out of mudhuts. You are naive to think the Industrial revolution was all icecream and pancakes. People had horrendous working conditions and did backbreaking labour, but only in the context of what we experience today, because their alternative was backbreaking labour in a field. 

Edited by vand

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Agreed, and the social welfare system was created to help just such working class people and provide safety nets for them...yet you are arguing against that by saying no tax should go towards helping the poorer classes. There is no logic in what you are saying.

 

Ban taxes which provide for the needy through benefits, help the disabled, the old, the sick, kids with education, hospitals ?

 

You would be condeming the most worse off back to the very place that you speak of in the post above !

Edited by Oldun

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3 hours ago, Oldun said:

Yes, for me, that is really far out there. Private pharmaceutical companies have already too much influence to extend patents for their products to make sure that generic medicine cannot be produced by other companies thereby gouging the customer, for example.

Private bus companies only compete on profitable routes and that leaves communities with expensive or no services.

All schools go private ? That is sheer madness. Companies already stuff our kids with processed food and massive advertising....how do poor kids’ parents pay for their education ? It would cause untold damage to the country and end up costing the country more in terms of productivity, health costs and god knows what else.

I am afraid it is not the utopia you think it is when it boils down to reality for people.

There are arguments both ways.

Pharma need to make money otherwise where is the drive to develop new drugs? Altruism? Yeah right. Only the people with money care about that. When you need money are you going to develop drugs for altruism? If there isn't a reward to develop new drugs, they won't develop. 

People living out in the sticks are not entitled to other people's money, to pay for a bus service. It's their choice to live there, they should pay more, or the bus service goes bust. 

The rich and successful send their kids to private schools. That is all the endorsement required for market based schooling. 

Police, defence, yes. A charity bus service, no. 

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Social welfare is the working and middle paying for the underclass. Very rarely it helps someone who needs it. 

Why can't charity provide. Why not let the market do it. Instead I am robbed to pay for enforced charity.

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Hmmm, I am assuming you are not old, sick etc....a responsible government using taxes wisely is not a bad thing. i fail to see why people disagree with this.

 


Added 0 minutes later...
4 minutes ago, KDave said:

Social welfare is the working and middle paying for the underclass. Very rarely it helps someone who needs it. 

Why can't charity provide. Why not let the market do it. Instead I am robbed to pay for enforced charity.

That is a ridiculously general and vague sweeping statement to make.....please take out your own rubbish tomorrow....and pay for your kids education in full...

Edited by Oldun

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If someone is old or sick they can use their own provisions. If they have none, seek charity, there are plenty of people willing to give alms in the UK. 

Instead we pay for people to live as if retired on benefits from the age of 18 onwards.

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4 minutes ago, Oldun said:

Hmmm, I am assuming you are not old, sick etc....a responsible government using taxes wisely is not a bad thing. i fail to see why people disagree with this.

 


Added 0 minutes later...

That is a ridiculously general and vague sweeping statement to make.....please take out your own rubbish tomorrow....and pay for your kids education in full...

Would that I could. I'd get the bins done weekly instead of twice monthly and it would cost a lot less. 

I already pay for my kids education.

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Do your kids go to a comprehensive or private ? If private, why would you deny the right to an education to others less fortunate and if a state school, why would you wish to pay more by ending taxation to pay for state schools thereby making education unaffordable for your kids ?

 

As for the bins, well, you can get rid by using a private company but you choose not to...

Edited by Oldun

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6 minutes ago, KDave said:

If someone is old or sick they can use their own provisions. If they have none, seek charity, there are plenty of people willing to give alms in the UK. 

 

Wow, so you would put old sick people out on the street if they have no means to pay and could get no charity...jaysus, that would take us backwards to the dark ages.

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I wouldn't deny anything. Me keeping my hard earned does not deny anyone anything. By that logic you are denying everyone, everyday, with every pound you hold and don't give to Teressa May. 

All this talk of rights and entitlements. Someone must carry those, that's me. Against my will. For the benefit of others, while my own family are denied the things I could have paid for instead. 

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4 minutes ago, Oldun said:

Wow, so you would put old sick people out on the street if they have no means to pay and could get no charity...jaysus, that would take us backwards to the dark ages.

So we tax to sort out the old. Then there's tax for the young. Then the out of work get some. Then even the part time workers get some. Only people not getting anything are the people working productively. 

If we are giving out money let's make it fair and give everyone the same amount. I think that's called basic income. If we have to have people getting something then make it even, and link it to productivity, then everyone shares in the benefits and are encouraged to work hard. 

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3 hours ago, Oldun said:

I have been to both Qatar and Dubai....you get thrown in jail for talking to a native woman, having a prang in a car and it doesn’t matter whose fault it is, if you are not a native, you are at fault (my brother-in-law was in charge of building Doha Airport and also the extension at Dubai Airport in charge of 3,000 guys with zero rights living in terrible on 300 bucks a month working in 50 degree heat 6 days a week from many countries, Lebanon, India, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Iraq, Pakistan etc etc....I would rather have taxes...but go ahead, please live there a while and let me know.

 

You need a government company sponsored license to buy alcohol in Doha and it can only be consumed in the home and is limited as to how much you can have a month.

Women get hospital treatment by men through a curtain for god sake !

You are presenting a false choice. Those differences are cultural, not economic. You don't have to have taxes to avoid those rules in Qatar and Dubai.

Income taxation, feminism and the social welfare state are the true destruction of western civilization. It's absolute madness to have such a system as it creates literal human monsters. The out of wedlock birthrate in the US is way higher than it should be.  The offspring it creates often become huge burdens to society. The welfare state discourages human innovation.

The beauty of a no tax and no welfare state is that it encourages foresight, virtue and intelligence. In such a society it pays to be a nice person and good neighbor because there is a value in creating a stronger community bond as you can't just use the state to anonymously rip off others to fund your desires or safety net. In a socialist state, it costs nothing to be a complete asshole because the state will be there for you.

Let me give a personal anecdote of the absurdity of the welfare state. I work at a casino and have a rather high paying job, one in which those lacking 'higher' education can also perform. We had one girl who literally hit her ex-boyfriend's car with her car, in order to hit the new girlfriend. After the accident she got out of the car and started physically abusing both of them. Obviously she lost her job, but she became eligible for unemployment insurance and the cacophony of welfare benefits. That's utter BS. She doesn't deserve a thing. She had a great job and didn't think about the consequences. I like to see such people get punished to the fullest extent because then they'll actually think about their behavior.

There is no reason the market shouldn't handle everything except defense and prisons.  Don't tell me about US healthcare. For one it's much higher quality than the UK has and nearly all of its problems are associated with government intervention.  The US healthcare wasn't a nightmare before Medicare/Medicaid.

Inequality is the natural and only fair condition of mankind as long as there is freedom to discover our talents and hold our earnings.. The world is a better place because Federer and I aren't equal at tennis. The world is a better place because I'm not as good at music as Beethoven was. I have a right to hold 100% of what I earn. That's a fair share.

Edited by AgCoyote

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1 hour ago, KDave said:

If someone is old or sick they can use their own provisions. If they have none, seek charity, there are plenty of people willing to give alms in the UK. 

Instead we pay for people to live as if retired on benefits from the age of 18 onwards.

So if your kids get sick what price do you put on them?

10k

100k

1m

when do you stop paying? when you have nothing left, what then? when do you put out the "begging bowl"?

What happens when the marauding gangs of assholes come for you? yes the police might help but what would they do? Kill them as there are no prisons? or put them in private prisons that someone magically pays for.

What if you are wrongly convicted of a crime and the only sentence is death or exile?

When I was young I thought as you do but now I am older and wiser I choose a more civilized way and unfortunately it has to be paid for and if nobody forces us to pay nobody would pay. 

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25 minutes ago, bored said:

So if your kids get sick what price do you put on them?

10k

100k

1m

when do you stop paying? when you have nothing left, what then? when do you put out the "begging bowl"?

What happens when the marauding gangs of assholes come for you? yes the police might help but what would they do? Kill them as there are no prisons? or put them in private prisons that someone magically pays for.

What if you are wrongly convicted of a crime and the only sentence is death or exile?

When I was young I thought as you do but now I am older and wiser I choose a more civilized way and unfortunately it has to be paid for and if nobody forces us to pay nobody would pay. 

If my kids are ill and I can't afford I would go begging for help yes. Why should I expect to do different?

Markets can provide prisons. No need for death or exile. People are wrongly convicted now, you know this. 

Civilisation based on theft of those able and willing to work. No wonder we have falling productivity and standards of living. I get it, it is what it is, not much chance to change it, I only have a vote. I understand the system we have well enough, if only first to minimise the damage to me and mine. And second to take advantage of it as everyone else does, though I do not justify it through rights and entitlements. Hardly a basis for civility and cooperation. 

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2 hours ago, Oldun said:

a responsible government using taxes wisely is not a bad thing.

 

has such a government ever existed?

 

imo a better example is:

peter schiff remembers stories about his father. the us

government used to be smaller and taxes were lower.

doctors fees were paid privately from money saved.

people put money to good use. how much money is

squandered by governments?

 

(a penny saved is a penny earned)

 

HH

Edited by HawkHybrid

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6 hours ago, vand said:

I mean, how dare they build a whole country up and not have the temerity to charge it to the public coffers:

 

Easier to do when you have massive resources to gain tax for revenue.  Unless a nation has low population and/or resource base, the idea of low tax doesnt work really, larger populations require, demand, public services.  

 

 

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8 hours ago, KDave said:

I wouldn't deny anything. Me keeping my hard earned does not deny anyone anything. By that logic you are denying everyone, everyday, with every pound you hold and don't give to Teressa May. 

All this talk of rights and entitlements. Someone must carry those, that's me. Against my will. For the benefit of others, while my own family are denied the things I could have paid for instead. 

You make yourself sound so very hard done by and that you are willing to pay for everything you use yourself. That is not the point. The point of taxation is to also help others less fortunate than yourself and to create a fairer society that evryone contributes towards depending on their means.

Edited by Oldun

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