Is this bullion or numismatic. Your thoughts ?

[Oldun]

Is  this bullion or does it have any numismatic value ? With bullion looking to rise in the coming year(s), how would you value this ?

What do you think ? All opinions very welcome and respected.

@Numistacker

@sovereignsteve

[shortstack68]

I would say bullion, it has a little numismatic value due to its history, but as a mostly numismatic coin buyer the grade of the coin would mean i would be look more towards the bullion price side if i seen it for sale. Numismatic buyers have changed their habits since i started, a lot are now looking for high grade examples of whatever it is they're collecting, which in turn pushes the prices

[Cornishfarmer]

Depending what you call bullion?    If you mean spot worth a fair bit more.    More semi,    Something I’d have in collection but probably something the real collectors would turn nose up at.

[Oldun]

It is fascinating isn’t it. Pure numismatics would snub their noses at it but bullionists would say there is some numismatic value.....a real unloved stray not belonging to either self defined groups. I love the history of the coin myself but realise the lack of pure breed the snobbery of the numismatic world would hurl at it....I think the value of the coin lies in its bullion evaluation personally, in the real world but with gold looking to push hard in the coming future...that’s ok with me.....anything else is a bonus

[Oldun]

Got an 1827 with an ‘ole in it half sovereign....same story...picked up years ago for 1-2% over spot at the time...lovely mix of ooooh....nearly....but very affordable and can wear on a necklace as jewelry....crappy photos....sorry.

[shortstack68]

23 minutes ago, Oldun said:

It is fascinating isn’t it. Pure numismatics would snub their noses at it but bullionists would say there is some numismatic value.....a real unloved stray not belonging to either self defined groups. I love the history of the coin myself but realise the lack of pure breed the snobbery of the numismatic world would hurl at it....I think the value of the coin lies in its bullion evaluation personally, in the real world but with gold looking to push hard in the coming future...that’s ok with me.....anything else is a bonus

You are right in what you say, but the 1832 was the highest mintage of Williams Reign, also, numismatic coins in high grade rise much faster in price. But as you collect bullion (and most do here) there is also another side to collecting, numismatics, if someone here were to sell a proof coin, then you'd want it in the best grade (PF70) those who collect older coins aren't any different, if they have the money available and the finest known comes up for sale then you can bet there will be a frenzy of bidding, don't think of it as snobbery, or else everyone here wouldn't bother about modern proofs being in 65 or 60 grades instead of 70

[Oldun]

Oh I dont think of trying to get a good grade as snobbery. My comment was that numismatics would view a damaged old coin with snobbery and place it on the same level as a modern coin in terms of the pennies paid....go figure....

[Oldun]

Here is a 1762 1/4 Guinea with a crease in it.....girls used to crease them to then give to their loved one to remind the lucky lad of her admiration for him.....bullion ?

[Oldun]

9 minutes ago, shortstack68 said:

You are right in what you say, but the 1832 was the highest mintage of Williams Reign, also, numismatic coins in high grade rise much faster in price. But as you collect bullion (and most do here) there is also another side to collecting, numismatics, if someone here were to sell a proof coin, then you'd want it in the best grade (PF70) those who collect older coins aren't any different, if they have the money available and the finest known comes up for sale then you can bet there will be a frenzy of bidding, don't think of it as snobbery, or else everyone here wouldn't bother about modern proofs being in 65 or 60 grades instead of 70

Bang on....in 2013 or earlier, you could have picked up various 1937 sovs for way way less than the silly prices now

[shortstack68]

Take this coin for example 

William and Mary (1688-1694), Crown, 1692/2 inverted, edge qvinto (ESC 824 [85]; S 3433). Extremely fine and toned estimate  £1,500-£2,000

DNW sale back in NOV 2018, my jaw dropped when it sold for £10k hammer

Not many come up in that grade, so obviously 2 people really wanted it

 

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Added 0 minutes later...

1 minute ago, Oldun said:

Bang on....in 2013 or earlier, you could have picked up various 1937 sovs for way way less than the silly prices now

I remember sets being sold for £4k hammer, i find that the 5 sov ridiculously overpriced with some dealers trying to sell for 10k when you can get all four coins for that price

[Oldun]

The William and Marys have been going for sillyprices in au recently....

[Oldun]

I cant help but feel that weak hands will be seen in numismatics either old or modern in the coming year or so....even on this forum, loads of people are selling graded/numismatics as I suspect they are after switching to bullion...

[sovereignsteve]

It has numismatic value certainly. Williams have gone up exponentially recently and people pay silly prices imo for poor grade coins. Good ones are rare.

this one is interesting; where is the damage? The slab says genuine, damaged and vf details. Doesn't sound too bad but would it put potential buyers off?

if broken out, it would be fine (ish) grade and would the damage be evident?

it would still go for well above bullion price, most serious collectors would want a better example but sometimes beggars can't be choosers.

[Oldun]

This one..photos of it raw included.....never did get a reply from Baldwin...and know that PCGS will special slab and grade whereas NGC wont so bunged it in a slab....

@sovereignsteve

 

[Oldun]

Found the attachment I sent to Baldwins to which I got no reply....shame...a quite deliberate imprint and would have loved to have know the history/reason/human story behind it....

[shortstack68]

1 hour ago, Oldun said:

I cant help but feel that weak hands will be seen in numismatics either old or modern in the coming year or so....even on this forum, loads of people are selling graded/numismatics as I suspect they are after switching to bullion...

Not entirely, i think they are taking profit to which will be offloaded into something else, whether numismatic or bullion

[Oldun]

Exactly.....either way offloading.....there are no really really big hitters buying and selling on this forum so I will keep my own counsel on this one

[shortstack68]

3 minutes ago, Oldun said:

You may well be right but there are no really really big hitters buying and selling on this forum so I will keep my own counsel on this one

This forum is more about modern day bullion and proofs and RM next coin hype videos, i generally buy what i like the look of, whatever that might be, there is the odd numismatic coin floating around, with 1 or 2 buyers, its a numbers game in here, whatever the slab number says generally dictates the price without looking at what's inside, in fact, it's not just here that it happens, it does also happen in the numismatic world, older collectors don't get hyped by coins being entombed in plastic, and as i've always said, these old collections have been around a hell of a lot longer than TPGs, so their market strategy is to obviously try and tell you that it must be slabbed to be worth anything, that's the part i dislike about it all

[Oldun]

 Most of the “old” collectors I have have met are sad old egotistical miserable bastards....at least grading brings in the new generation and should not be sniffed at.....but in terms of what you refer to about the loveliness of raw coins and the art of understanding therein, I wouldn’t necessarily disagree

[shortstack68]

9 minutes ago, Oldun said:

 Most of the “old” collectors I have have met are sad old egotistical miserable bastards....at least grading brings in the new generation and should not be sniffed at.....but in terms of what you refer to about the loveliness of raw coins and the art of understanding therein, I wouldn’t necessarily disagree

I met about 4 years back an older guy who was behind the Baldwin’s stand at the Munich coin fair, he was a real grumpy git, luckily I have met and know the new MD now, Neil Paisley, i’m taking a beer along to him during the March fair.

p.s, as i’ve Said before, grading is subjective, everyone who grades are humans, if you’re a seller, your coin is EF, a buyers grade is GVF, let’s be honest, some of the slabbed grades are also pretty poor

[shortstack68]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Standard-Guide-Grading-British-Coins/dp/0948964561/ref=sr_1_3/261-5921592-7887546?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1548936921&sr=1-3&keywords=rotographic

[Oldun]

Got an acquaintance who needs help looki g through 100 sovereigns that an old lady was left by her husband...along with an estate far far more valuable.....it will be fun to look through them and help her to not get ripped off by dealers or self professed middlemen just looking out for themselves......bought several rather expensive books recently out of my own pocket to help her and learn more about things myself...

[shortstack68]

3 minutes ago, Oldun said:

Got an acquaintance who needs help looki g through 100 sovereigns that an old lady was left by her husband...along with an estate far far more valuable.....it will be fun to look through them and help her to not get ripped off by dealers.....bought several rather expensive books recently out of my own pocket to help her and learn more about things myself...

Nice, would love to see some of those. Not all dealers are bad though, she could also sell at a good auction house where there is no hiding prices

[Oldun]

Agreed but my friend runs a buy and sell and she went to him for advice and he has since come to me as he knows nothing about sovs.....so I am just assisting and will make nothing personally out of this other than seeing hopefully some great coins....if I get stuck, I may post pics here

 

[Oldun]

2 hours ago, shortstack68 said:

You are right in what you say, but the 1832 was the highest mintage of Williams Reign, also, numismatic coins in high grade rise much faster in price. But as you collect bullion (and most do here) there is also another side to collecting, numismatics, if someone here were to sell a proof coin, then you'd want it in the best grade (PF70) those who collect older coins aren't any different, if they have the money available and the finest known comes up for sale then you can bet there will be a frenzy of bidding, don't think of it as snobbery, or else everyone here wouldn't bother about modern proofs being in 65 or 60 grades instead of 70

PS. Please dont assume I collect bullion....80% of what I have is non bullion