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Fake half sovereign?


silenceissilver

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After doubts occurred about my Isle of Man sovereign bullion coin, which turned out to have the right density of 22c gold, I have done a Archimedes test on all my sovereigns (all bullion) and all had the right density but my half sovereign. It was my first gold at all, this summer, and at the time I just trusted the dealer (to some extent plus I carried out weight and dimension tests but I was not sure about the tolerances, rather small changes with such a small coin and it would be a fit) but the density suggests it is probably gold plated silver (just under 13gramms per cm3). Also, I have noticed the BP signature for the designer at the bottom right is missing. After I bought it, I came across there being editions where it's elsewhere on the coin (or not there at all? - can't remember). So, does this missing BP at the bottom right of the reverse, on a 1896 half sovereign on it's own guarantee it's fake?

 

I'm asking because I have only one half sovereign and I don't want to 100% exclude the possibility that the accuracy of the Archimedes test goes exponentially south, the smaller the piece of PM is. I have attached a photo of the half sovereign and a (worn) 1900 full sovereign for comparison (only 7.96 grams but the density is right). The photo quality of both is not good, they might look more worn on the photo. I can't get good close ups with my camera. The only reason I post the photos is, to show there is no BP sign, not even a very worn one on the half sovereign. ... The question mark in the title is rather a formality, I'm almost 100% sure the half sovereign is fake, but I would still appriciate the opinions of more experienced stackers/collectors.

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8 minutes ago, barney said:

well not the best pics, but one thing in your favor is 1896 half sovereigns don't have the B.P. on them 🙂

Thanks, that's really helpful, so it could still be the accuracy going downhill with smaller pieces. My next gold purchase will be at least one further half sovereign then, for comparing the accuracy of the Archimedes test between full and half sovereigns. (I have carried it out in two different set ups and both times the full sovereigns were fine but not the half sovereign.)

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2 hours ago, silenceissilver said:

but the density suggests it is probably gold plated silver (just under 13gramms per cm3)

That is a lot lower than 22ct gold, which should be just under 18

Do you think your test could be that inaccurate?

If you're consistently getting the correct value for your sovereigns, could you try doing one of those and your dodgy half together in the same test? Would need to tie them together somehow.

Profile picture with thanks to Carl Vernon

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1 hour ago, sovereignsteve said:

That is a lot lower than 22ct gold, which should be just under 18

Do you think your test could be that inaccurate?

If you're consistently getting the correct value for your sovereigns, could you try doing one of those and your dodgy half together in the same test? Would need to tie them together somehow.

That's a good idea, I have actually done that but with too many sovereigns together, so the one half sovereign wouldn't really change it that much. However, that was with the first set up, without any strings but the coins in a container (underneath the water surface) that was hooked in, at the bottom of a scale. With tieing them together I could see air bubbles getting in between them, distorting the result. For now I have enough of testing my coins but I will definitely test it together with a full sovereign as well as getting more half sovereigns and testing them individually. I don't think my test could be that inaccurate but without comparison it's hard to exclude. The second test was the same as in @BackyardBullion 's  youtube video. Have you tested any half sovereigns - and had no problems with the accuracy, compared to bigger coins e.g. full sovereigns?

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4 hours ago, silenceissilver said:

Have you tested any half sovereigns - and had no problems with the accuracy, compared to bigger coins e.g. full sovereigns?

No I've never tested any sovereigns. I don't feel it's necessary; If it's the right weight and size then I'm happy so long as it looks right for what it's supposed to be.

Profile picture with thanks to Carl Vernon

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Have you weighed the half sovereign on electronic scales and at what precision ?
Diameter ?
Centre ( not rim ) thickness ?

If you are able to make a specific gravity test on a full sovereign and get the correct result then just repeat with your questionable half sovereign.
Since you already suspect the half is fake then assuming it has the correct weight and diameter then it will definitely be much thicker.
Use the formula Volume = [ Mass ( Weight ) / Density ] = [ Area / Thickness ]
Area = [ 3.142 x (Diameter x Diameter ) / 4 ] so you can calculate the thickness according to your measurements and compare with an actual thickness.

Re - SG test ensure you tare your scales when using say a thin plastic cup half filled with water and that you are not exceeding the weight limit for your scales.
Suspend the coin in a cradle of very thin thread and do not let it rest on the bottom of the container when taking the measurement.
Keep it still and not swinging in the water ensuring it is fully submerged.
If comparing your SG measurement with the full sovereign, repeat around the same time because the temperature of the water ( difference between cold fresh tap water and room temperature ) will change the numbers.

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A NITON gun is the "ULTIMATE" answer! but you have to be able to borrow a "mate"

I have often spent hours staring through a Loupe, testing specific gravity - - (just because "it didn't look right ) to only find out its panic over our "SHINEYS PRECIOUS"Related image

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7 hours ago, Pete said:

Have you weighed the half sovereign on electronic scales and at what precision ?

Yes, 0.00 grams precision

7 hours ago, Pete said:

Diameter ?

1.932cm

7 hours ago, Pete said:

Centre ( not rim ) thickness ?

1.13 but I think that might have been the rim, I can't remember.

7 hours ago, Pete said:

If you are able to make a specific gravity test on a full sovereign and get the correct result then just repeat with your questionable half sovereign.

I did.

7 hours ago, Pete said:

Since you already suspect the half is fake then assuming it has the correct weight and diameter then it will definitely be much thicker.

No, the suspicion only arose because of the gravity text. Just afterwards, I was looking for other non-fits for genuine half sovereigns and had forgotten that they don't have the B.P. (something I most certainly checked after I bought it but had forgotten since)

 

7 hours ago, Pete said:

Re - SG test ensure you tare your scales when using say a thin plastic cup half filled with water and that you are not exceeding the weight limit for your scales.

I have tared it to 0 after I put the water-cup on it. I didn't exceed the limit, it is 200 grams, the whole plastic cup with water was ca. 100 grams.

7 hours ago, Pete said:

Suspend the coin in a cradle of very thin thread and do not let it rest on the bottom of the container when taking the measurement.

I didn't, can't think of the name now but it's this thread for teeth

7 hours ago, Pete said:

Keep it still and not swinging in the water ensuring it is fully submerged.

I did

7 hours ago, Pete said:

If comparing your SG measurement with the full sovereign, repeat around the same time because the temperature of the water ( difference between cold fresh tap water and room temperature ) will change the numbers.

It was at the same time, before the second go I even boiled the water and let it cool down in order to get rid of microscopic air bubbles you can expect in tap water

 

Thanks for your advice, particularly about the thickness, I had no clue if to measure at the rim or not. The result was also very volatile so to speak, changing hugely percentage-wise when moving it just a tiny bit in the calliper.

7 hours ago, Pete said:

Use the formula Volume = [ Mass ( Weight ) / Density ] = [ Area / Thickness ]

Area = [ 3.142 x (Diameter x Diameter ) / 4 ] so you can calculate the thickness according to your measurements and compare with an actual thickness.

I will do that, now that I now where to actually measure the thickness. I had enough of measuring for this year but I will get my half sovereign out the first days of the next year. Thanks again, that was really helpful. The measured weight with the coin in the water would have needed to be only a tenth of a gram lower to be fit, (Weight of the coin on its own divided by the weight you measure with the coin in the water, after having tared it to zero) that was I questioned the result.

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1 hour ago, silenceissilver said:

1.13 but I think that might have been the rim, I can't remember.

In general, don't take much notice of the measured thickness of a sovereign or half. This is extremely difficult to measure accurately and the specifications you find in the literature or on websites varies so much as to make it meaningless. It is certainly pointless to use your measured thickness in a formula for coin volume; the thickness varies so much over the face of a coin.

The best way is to use the thickness guide on some old sovereign scales (or equivalent modern guide) or even better, hold the coin against a known good coin or two. You'll soon see any discrepancy.

Profile picture with thanks to Carl Vernon

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47 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

In general, don't take much notice of the measured thickness of a sovereign or half. This is extremely difficult to measure accurately and the specifications you find in the literature or on websites varies so much as to make it meaningless. It is certainly pointless to use your measured thickness in a formula for coin volume; the thickness varies so much over the face of a coin.

The best way is to use the thickness guide on some old sovereign scales (or equivalent modern guide) or even better, hold the coin against a known good coin or two. You'll soon see any discrepancy.

I can confirm it's really hard to measure, that's why I thought it's probably right, when I first measured it, after I had bought it. I had never heard of sovereign scales, duckduckgo brought me this result on ebay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/302984904360 I think you are right there is no way of avoiding to buy at least another half sovereign for comparison (both of the thickness and of the density (measurement)).

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11 hours ago, silenceissilver said:

I had never heard of sovereign scales, duckduckgo brought me this result on ebay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/302984904360

The type I was referring to incorporates slits for the full and half that a real coin should pass through.

1566341677_sovscales.thumb.jpg.6eea03f1844f1fae761e8e2b0b858413.jpg

Not mine, I might add, looks like someone has been at the full sov slit with a file!

A similar idea is one of these:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/24ct-half-Gold-Sovereign-genuine-Coin-size-check-Testing-Kit/322539841748?epid=2186244125&hash=item4b18df68d4:g:yhIAAOSwoudW1s-5:rk:35:pf:0

Profile picture with thanks to Carl Vernon

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3 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

The type I was referring to incorporates slits for the full and half that a real coin should pass through.

1566341677_sovscales.thumb.jpg.6eea03f1844f1fae761e8e2b0b858413.jpg

Not mine, I might add, looks like someone has been at the full sov slit with a file!

A similar idea is one of these:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/24ct-half-Gold-Sovereign-genuine-Coin-size-check-Testing-Kit/322539841748?epid=2186244125&hash=item4b18df68d4:g:yhIAAOSwoudW1s-5:rk:35:pf:0

Thanks. I will still go for comparion with other half sovereigns and possibly and new version of this kind of test.

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  • 1 month later...

I have bought another bullion half sovereign and the density is what you would expect, so this one is fake. Will go and demand another one, from this dealer. Actually I will have all my sovereigns looked at, the more I look at the others, the more dodgy several of them seem to be.

 

Interestingly, testing with sovereign scales or calipers doesn't tell you anything at all. The fake and the real one have the same diameter and seem to have the same thickness - but only do have it at the rim but the actual plate of the fake one is thicker as it has ca a third more volume. Under the microscope and even with your bare eyes you can see the rim is almost on the same level as the plate at the fake coin, the rim of the real one stands out like a relievo.

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  • 1 month later...

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