NGC is FAILING - where is the quality control???

[shortstack68]

1 minute ago, Ablist said:

Yes agreed. I suppose other grades can be slightly subjective. But a MS70, PF70, PR70 etc should be flawless. This isn’t ambiguous, it’s not left open for debate. Flawless means Flawless, and I feel there is an absolute expectation to get a 70 coin that IS flawless when you buy one. Otherwise what’s the point of grading, this defeats the purpose.

And that's what drives prices artificially, lets be honest, could you tell the difference between 69 and 70, i doubt even our local superstar could

[*tada*]

3 hours ago, shortstack68 said:

A 70 should be flawless 

 

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Looks like someone else isn’t happy with NGC lol

 

https://www.pcgs.com/news/finest-known-1885-trade-dollar-crossover?utm_source=CoinWeek&utm_medium=email_promotion&utm_content=pcgs-coinweek-jan2019

Great find, Dell Loy Hansen is very much PCGS oriented - his all time best US coin set, assembled in 2 years or so, is there in PCGS registry.

[Ablist]

On some coins it is obvious, but I have seen, as was mentioned above, some 69s that I would grade 70. I don’t see any imperfections. Then you have the MS70 Falcon that I got, that had a glaring ding in it that is painfully obvious. It’s absolutely not a 70. It’s a problem to me when something that obvious gets encapsulated and graded a 70. As I mentioned before I won’t buy any more NGC coins without seeing them first. I don’t trust their grading anymore.  It isn’t that many of their coins arent 70s. I just wouldn’t buy one without seeing it now. 69s are a different deal for me since you can many times get them for the same price as raw bullion coin. So I don’t mind buying them. But again there isn’t the expectation of a perfect coin, and I am not paying a premium. I hope NGC is reading some of this feedback. It does matter and will impact their brand in the long term,  buyers confidence, etc. 

 

[shortstack68]

1 minute ago, *tada* said:

Great find, Dell Loy Hansen is very much PCGS oriented - his all time best US coin set, assembled in 2 years or so, is there in PCGS registry.

If you look up the slab number maybe you can find more through that.

[shortstack68]

1 minute ago, Ablist said:

On some coins it is obvious, but I have seen, as was mentioned above, some 69s that I would grade 70. I don’t see any imperfections. Then you have the MS70 Falcon that I got, that had a glaring ding in it that is painfully obvious. It’s absolutely not a 70. It’s a problem to me when something that obvious gets encapsulated and graded a 70. As I mentioned before I won’t buy any more NGC coins without seeing them first. I don’t trust their grading anymore.  It that many of their coins arent 70s. I just wouldn’t buy one without seeing it now. 69s are a different deal for me since you can many times get them for the same price as raw bullion coin. So I don’t mind buying them. But again there isn’t the expectation of a perfect coin, and I am not paying a premium. I hope NGC is reading some of this feedback. It does matter and will impact their brand in the long term,  buyers confidence, etc. 

 

It’s a different story if something is glaringly obvious as is your case, but there are coins out there that you look at and ask yourself why it actually got a lower grade. Personally I think it’s down to pop reports, some they like to keep at a certain level, so if they think there’s too many of a particular coin in a 70 grade then they’ll just mark it down regardless, it’s all about getting those first coins into the TPGs.

P.s, I would have sent your coins back

[*tada*]

18 minutes ago, shortstack68 said:

If you look up the slab number maybe you can find more through that.

DLH is the epic collector of our age and has unlimited budget. I imagine he would cross a lot of top NGC coins there to get it photographed properly.

[Ablist]

Yeah I’ve thought about it, it’s just not even worth my time and the frustration to be honest. The amount of money I would be refunded would be wasted in the process of me resubmitting them. I just look at as I lesson learned. I see now why many people shy away from grading silver. And I really do agree that populations and possibly other things are going on that we may not always be privy too. As has been said so many times, buy the coin, not the holder. Just frustrating that I feel I can’t trust NGCs 70 coins to necessarily be a 70. I do still feel I can trust PCGS. Never had an issue with them.

[Xander]

Has anyone had a coin de-graded and removed it from the holder and sent it off to NCS to be regraded? Or is it not worth the bother?

[SILVERFINGER]

Does this company (the graders) sell the coins already slabbed themselves, as they will want to get as much for them as possible and maybe ignore any faults that a customer who already owns the coin and submits would be downgraded on, much like a car dealership that MOT's cars themselves and pass cars that shouldnt of, or dont put advisorys down, and I seen that a lot in the auto trade.

[Ablist]

I don’t believe NGC nor PCGS sell the coins, and as far as I know their employees and graders theoretically are not supposed to either. How stringently this is enforced is anyone’s guess..

[Ablist]

Here are some interesting thoughts from Salivate Metal on YouTube

 

[sovereignsteve]

4 hours ago, shortstack68 said:

A 70 should be flawless 

 

1 hour ago, Ablist said:

S70, PF70, PR70 etc should be flawless. This isn’t ambiguous, it’s not left open for debate. Flawless means Flawless, and I feel there is an absolute expectation to get a 70 coin that IS flawless when you buy one

Not strictly true, there is an allowance for slight defects produced in the minting process.

PCGS:

NGC:

[Ablist]

Yes I am aware of these but I understood that to be under 5x magnification. What if it can be seen with the naked eye? 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vcdqYh5-HMg

[Ablist]

And if that is true, then I really need to research this more. If a coin is supposed to be perfect, it should be perfect. It either is or it isn’t. I don’t really see room for subjectivity on 70s. Other people obvioulsy don’t feel the same. To me it just ruins the point of a 70 grade though.

[sovereignsteve]

They are the standards as defined by the two companies. How they actually implement them who knows.

You have to remember though that when TPG first started, they were dealing in the main with older numismatic coins and were grading the level of post minting wear. It was never really designed for modern proof coins or coins not intended for circulation.

Also if there is absolutely no sign of post minting wear or damage, who is to say that what looks like an imperfection produced during minting, wasn't actually on the die and wasn't meant to be there?

[Big23]

I got one of these, imperfection on the Queen's neck, graded PF70. Sent back to NGC and they said this mark was done during the minting process and does not 'degrade' the coin.

[Ablist]

Yes these are all good points. I am really referring to two specific coins I have that were graded 70 by NGC, that are NOT 70s. It mostly just bothers me that these coins “slipped through the cracks” so to speak. If we can’t rely on these grading services to do their job correctly, on the simplest of things, what use are they and why are we paying them money?

[sovereignsteve]

1 minute ago, Ablist said:

Yes these are all good points. I am really referring to two specific coins I have that were graded 70 by NGC, that are NOT 70s. It mostly just bothers me that these coins “slipped through the cracks” so to speak. If we can’t rely on these grading services to do their job correctly, on the simplest of things, what use are they and why are we paying them money?

Yes as you say, your coin had an obvious ding, as clear a post minting imperfection as you can get!

[Ablist]

6 minutes ago, Big23 said:

I got one of these, imperfection on the Queen's neck, graded PF70. Sent back to NGC and they said this mark was done during the minting process and does not 'degrade' the coin.

Yeah I disagree with NGC on this. It’s not a perfect coin to me. I am not happy with this type of grading or them trying to explain why it is perfect. If it happened during the minting process, even if it was to all the coins, then to me that means they didn’t produce any perfect 70s. This type of thinking eludes to a comment earlier, that if there are no perfect coins, they designate the best coins as 70s when otherwise they would not be. I suppose much is still open to debate on grading. I don’t feel like perfection should be a debate though. As I said before, it either is or is not perfect.

[Big23]

@Ablist I agree, that's why we sent it back so they could do some NCS magic but they just confirmed the grade... o.O

[Ablist]

1 minute ago, Big23 said:

@Ablist I agree, that's why we sent it back so they could do some NCS magic but they just confirmed the grade... o.O

Yep this reinforces my loss of confidence in NGC

[SILVERFINGER]

Hmm I can understand that if its the norm that a coin series has known production flaws then as long as nothing has damaged it since it was made it could be considered mint condition, I have some guns that are mint condition, they are late war nazi production where they were produced as quickly as possible, no polishing out lathe and milling marks, a thin military matt black finish instead of a glossy deep blue, its a mint gun for its year of production and type.

Below is a mid war very good condition nazi occupation CZ 1927 pistol, 

This is a late war almost mint one, in better condition than the one above, despite the metalwork looking like a ploughed field, all the marks, naff faded looking finish are how this gun left the factory, I dont think it had hardly ever been used from the state of the inside of it, and just had the odd storage marks, I am just wondering if they grade coins in a similiar way to I do.

 

 

 

[Ablist]

19 hours ago, SILVERFINGER said:

Hmm I can understand that if its the norm that a coin series has known production flaws then as long as nothing has damaged it since it was made it could be considered mint condition, I have some guns that are mint condition, they are late war nazi production where they were produced as quickly as possible, no polishing out lathe and milling marks, a thin military matt black finish instead of a glossy deep blue, its a mint gun for its year of production and type.

Below is a mid war very good condition nazi occupation CZ 1927 pistol, 

This is a late war almost mint one, in better condition than the one above, despite the metalwork looking like a ploughed field, all the marks, naff faded looking finish are how this gun left the factory, I dont think it had hardly ever been used from the state of the inside of it, and just had the odd storage marks, I am just wondering if they grade coins in a similiar way to I do.

I suppose this is where some debate remains. I do feel that when you are dealing with older items, there is much more flexibility. But, at the same time, we never see a 1923 peace dollar as an MS70, simply because they don’t exist. I am not familiar with collecting older guns as collectibles. So I don’t want to speculate too much here. My feeling is this ultimately, a modern coin, with all the technology we have, the minting capabilities etc. In my eyes, a brand new coin that is deemed a 70 grade, should be absolutely flawless. Once again eluding to the “perfect coin”. If it’s not perfect, why call it perfect. Maybe NGC needs to have more meticulous graders that actually care about the quality of their work. “Almost Perfect” is NOT perfect. It’s ALMOST perfect. Which means it’s a 69.

[Ablist]

One other thought comes to mind as well. It may very well be “Mint Condition”, however I do not necessarily think the connotation exists that just because it is “Mint State” it is also “Perfect” or and MS/PF/PR 70. This simply means it is mint state. 

[Ablist]

22 hours ago, Xander said:

Has anyone had a coin de-graded and removed it from the holder and sent it off to NCS to be regraded? Or is it not worth the bother?

It would have to be worth the potential value increase. So for a gold coin possibly, for most silver coins no. If it is a highly desirable silver coin, where the MS/PF/PR 70 would increase the value dramatically, then yes theoretically it would be worth it. But being a 70s seems to still be so subjective I feel this is a big risk with time and money spent. This really has to do with the difference in price and value a 70 is commanding, as opposed to a 69. But those are my humble opinions.