NGC is FAILING - where is the quality control???

[mpiokpee]

NGC is FAILING - where is the quality control???

Not sure if any of you out there submit coins directly to NGC or via a member, ie., Numistacker. But this year I have submitted coins directly to NGC. I have to say I am VERY DISAPPOINTED.

On average, a coin can cost on average $16.00 - $60.00 per coin for submission, depending on the level of service. I have submitted this year about 100 coins. Of that batch, I have had numerous issues.

Relating to shipping issues, mechanical errors, inaccuracies on the NGC order status page, etc. I am just really un-impressed. 

As far as shipping, I submitted to NGC my official Shipping form with detailed instructions for my shipping. They continue to ship incorrectly. Totally contrary to my official requested shipping and coin application forms I was made to complete. Whats the point?

I receive one mechanical error on average of every 30 coins submitted. WOW - really. I pay additional services for a special label and they do NOT read the coin application? or the image taken of the coin is either not present online or it was the old label before they found the error.

Their NGC order status page is often never is accurate and I may receive the coins before their page is updated or after I call.

I also have no clue what my balance is on their site - they continue to change prices after submission, and/or charge additional incremental fees with submission, with limited and next-to-zero explanation of why?

Sorry for the diatribe but I had to vent somewhere - numi want to chime in? I follow your channel and you obviously encountered issues in the past as-well. Is it just me, and my black cloud hangin overhead, or is anyone else having the same issues?

I have not done PCGS submissions, and after this year seriously contemplating if it is a better alternative.

Below was the latest mechanical error - I had requested the Great Britain (acceptable for coins after > 1955) special label - but clearly did not get it. I also might add this coin was also shipped incorrectly, double ding. ugh-sigh....

 

 

[mpiokpee]

and one more thing I forgot to mention - I have sent in coins (sealed w/ COAs) and paid the service fee to have them returned. One time they said it was damaged and couldn't return it .. umm pure Bologna and the other time they sent me a crumpled up Xerox copy and kept the original!!! WHAT!?!?

 

ok I am done - thanks for listening. 🙂 cheers 

[sovereignsteve]

1 hour ago, mpiokpee said:

and one more thing I forgot to mention - I have sent in coins (sealed w/ COAs) and paid the service fee to have them returned. One time they said it was damaged and couldn't return it .. umm pure Bologna and the other time they sent me a crumpled up Xerox copy and kept the original!!! WHAT!?!?

These issues are totally unacceptable and imo a break of contract,

the general issues suggest they are too busy for their current processes and staffing levels. Whether they are trying to resolve these or happy to rake in the profits, who knows?

 

[Ablist]

I have recently purchased 2 NGC MS70 coins myself that are definitely not MS70. There are clear scratches on both coins that you can be seen with the naked eye. No loop needed at all. I’m debating if I want to take the time to resolve this with them or just start avoiding their coins and take it as a loss instead. I’m not sure that the coins are worth the time and effort to mail them back to NGC and got through the whole process with them. This makes me think they over inflate the populations of some grades. These were a brand new Maple Incuse and a Queens Beasts. It’s made me lose a lot of faith in NGC. I have consistently found PCGS graded coins to be better with the exception of eagles as they always seem to get milkspots regardless of who graded them. But otherwise PCGS goldshield seems to be the highest standard right now. I notice that pretty consistently with PCGS there is a much lower population of MS70 and MS69 on any given coin compared to NGCs populations for the same coin. Not always, but quite often.

[kimchi]

30 minutes ago, Ablist said:

I have recently purchased 2 NGC MS70 coins myself that are definitely not MS70. There are clear scratches on both coins that you can be seen with the naked eye.

Any pics? Would be useful

[Ablist]

[Ablist]

Here is the Queens Beast, which is obviously EXTREMELY disappointing to say the least. Thinking I got a a true MS70 FDOI Falcon. But nope it’s not an MS70. You can clearly see the mark directly to left of the word “of” and specifically next to the letter “F” ... At least I didn’t pay nearly the price I see them going for now. I know the pics arent the best but I was having a hard time getting the light to reflect the mark correctly. It’s obvioulsy most visible, and easily visible when rotating it under a good light. The Maple is already in the vault. When it comes out I will try to remember to take pictures. It’s a similar deal though. There are radial lines that are on the lip of the coin where there should not be any. At any rate I definitely agree with the quality control lacking at NGC. I don’t feel nearly as confident in them as I did before and think I will have to see an NGC coin personally before buying one again. I have NEVER had this happen with a PCGS coin.

[SILVERFINGER]

Be very careful there is fake coins being sold in fake slabs, harder to test them when they are all covered up, remember what man can make, man can fake.

[Ablist]

Yes this is true. Unfortunately this is a real Queens Beasts Falcon from NGC. I bought it immediately when it was released from a reputable coin dealer. Also its simply too new and could not have been faked that quickly, I am however aware of fakes and this is why I only purchase from reputable dealers. This is an NGC problem I assure you. And I am not happy with them. I think they are inflating populations to get more money from grading coins. I think this is reflected also in the fact that when I occasionally do sell a coin I always get more for a PCGS coin. I see other videos on YouTube and know I am not the only person that has had these problems with them. Fakes are also one of the reasons I won’t buy products like Pamp Suisse and Sunshine Mint. There are just too many fakes. I also feel this could make them harder to sell in the future. I prefer current modern bullion, immediately when it is released from an authorized dealer of that mint. EBay also has a good feature with their “Authenticity Verified” where they have also vetted the company. At any rate, I stand my ground with NGC. I am not happy. NGC if you read this please take note. I am far from the only coin buyer having issues with your grading.

[*tada*]

As a frequent submitter for both PCGS and NGC coins, I have to say unfortunately NGC is getting looser on modern world coins. Maybe they are just too busy with too many submissions. It’s certainly great for those who grade their coins and sell them to those who only care about the numbers on slabs, but it will hurt the collector base in the long run.

PCGS has its own issues. Sometimes ridiculously strict for 70 grade, and you wait FOREVER on any kind of service. Inconsistent coin imaging templates. More mechanical errors as well. You need to know the person to get something fixed. And did I mention silver milk spots?

In the end, buy the coin, not the holder. Grading is done by humans and humans make mistakes. I suggest everyone to check the 70 graded coins they bought. Is there spotting? Rim issue? Hairline scratches? Planchet error? The graders sometimes miss these or ignore some of these imperfections for technical grades and you should always be careful when you feel like you got a bargain for a perfect coin. 

[TheGoldSovereign]

I've said this for a long time, their grading seems to be all over the place. 

I've seen plenty of the same coins where lower graded ones are better than some higher graded. 

From what I hear in the circles they may give "preferential" treatment so to speak, to certain contacts, it may explain some of the misgrades when they hit the open market

I think when buying slabbed coins either judge the pictures yourself (only PCGS provide high enough quality pictures to do this), or just accept that the grade may be +/- a few grades 🤣

[shortstack68]

As i've said before, grading is done by humans and any grade given is just an opinion, all opinions differ, but you pay money for them to at least get near the target.

I also find them more expensive than PCGS, €15 handling fee for each coin is ridiculous when its $10 in the USA, their pricing should be near or on par with the head company.

None of them are perfect, but i would prefer PCGS if i was to choose.

[Cornishfarmer]

Why would it be done by humans in this day in age? A computer scan would be consistent and would be a trusted solution 

[shortstack68]

27 minutes ago, Cornishfarmer said:

Why would it be done by humans in this day in age? A computer scan would be consistent and would be a trusted solution 

exactly

[blackadder]

7 hours ago, sg86 said:

I've said this for a long time, their grading seems to be all over the place. 

That could be down to some people being more into the job then say another employee where he/she can't be ****ed anymore.

Or lots of people doing the grading and all their views are different.

[shortstack68]

5 minutes ago, blackadder said:

That could be down to some people being more into the job then say another employee where he/she can't be ****ed anymore.

Or lots of people doing the grading and all their views are different.

Each coin passes through 3 graders hands. Although, new graders do get the 💩 to start off their grading careers, which means boxes upon boxes of bullion to go through

[*tada*]

5 hours ago, Cornishfarmer said:

Why would it be done by humans in this day in age? A computer scan would be consistent and would be a trusted solution 

It will be too difficult. There are two types of learning algorithms, supervised learning (for example, computer learns how human graders assign grades and develop its own skills - then you still need human graders and their "correct" grading samples. and you need a lot of these data) and unsupervised learning (no one tells the computer which label/category should you assign to a coin - this is equally impractical given how complicated the grading scale is and there will be no immediate feedback from the results). There aren't much good data for computer algorithms to learn unfortunately.

[PansPurse]

Curiously, the OP's issued seemed to mostly be mechanical and administrative ones, wrong labels, wrong shipping etc, but most of the discussion has focused on the reliability of the grades themselves. I wonder what the trade-off is for different users? How much administrative bumbling is acceptable for reliable grades versus how much happier would people be if the administrative side of things was more polished a reliable?

[*tada*]

4 minutes ago, PansPurse said:

Curiously, the OP's issued seemed to mostly be mechanical and administrative ones, wrong labels, wrong shipping etc, but most of the discussion has focused on the reliability of the grades themselves. I wonder what the trade-off is for different users? How much administrative bumbling is acceptable for reliable grades versus how much happier would people be if the administrative side of things was more polished a reliable?

great question - I think the trust we place on TPG regarding consistency of professional grading must be of highest importance. The business is built on that trust. For retail submitter their service quality is important for my mental health.😁

[shortstack68]

23 minutes ago, *tada* said:

It will be too difficult. There are two types of learning algorithms, supervised learning (for example, computer learns how human graders assign grades and develop its own skills - then you still need human graders and their "correct" grading samples. and you need a lot of these data) and unsupervised learning (no one tells the computer which label/category should you assign to a coin - this is equally impractical given how complicated the grading scale is and there will be no immediate feedback from the results). There aren't much good data for computer algorithms to learn unfortunately.

PCGS are already in the process of automated grading

[*tada*]

3 minutes ago, shortstack68 said:

PCGS are already in the process of automated grading 

 

They even have a patent in 1991

https://patents.google.com/patent/US5224176

[shortstack68]

12 minutes ago, PansPurse said:

Curiously, the OP's issued seemed to mostly be mechanical and administrative ones, wrong labels, wrong shipping etc, but most of the discussion has focused on the reliability of the grades themselves. I wonder what the trade-off is for different users? How much administrative bumbling is acceptable for reliable grades versus how much happier would people be if the administrative side of things was more polished a reliable?

I think it's more about frustration, the coins are labelled so they can be identified by the graders, so it's not actually a grading fault, more who labels and slabs the coins, but it becomes a ball ache when its does have a wrong label and it's arrived at your doorstep, i can understand the frustration, but sometimes these things can work in your favour which i experienced about 18 months ago

[SILVERFINGER]

What if most of the coins made by the mint have faults, does that mean when they grade them the best coins will get the top grades but still have manufacturing flaws.

[shortstack68]

9 minutes ago, SILVERFINGER said:

What if most of the coins made by the mint have faults, does that mean when they grade them the best coins will get the top grades but still have manufacturing flaws.

A 70 should be flawless 

 

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Added 0 minutes later...

Looks like someone else isn’t happy with NGC lol

 

https://www.pcgs.com/news/finest-known-1885-trade-dollar-crossover?utm_source=CoinWeek&utm_medium=email_promotion&utm_content=pcgs-coinweek-jan2019

[Ablist]

3 hours ago, shortstack68 said:

A 70 should be flawless 

Yes agreed. I suppose other grades can be slightly subjective. But a MS70, PF70, PR70 etc should be flawless. This isn’t ambiguous, it’s not left open for debate. Flawless means Flawless, and I feel there is an absolute expectation to get a 70 coin that IS flawless when you buy one. Otherwise what’s the point of grading, this defeats the purpose.