Post-Brexit trips to Belgium

[Fastnick]

Do please forgive me if this question has been asked previously, but I'd be interested to hear peoples' thoughts on the following:

If for a moment we assume that any orders placed with GS.be and the European Mint after 29 March 2019 will see VAT at 20% being slapped on our packages when the arrive in the UK, would the same apply if I took a trip over to Belgium/Estonia/etc., and returned with a quantity of silver (or platinum) coins that were legal tender in this country with a face value of less than £10,000 (i.e. below the statutory amount that must be declared under the various money laundering laws)?

If I stuck to UK legal tender coinage (i.e. I didn't bring in any silver or platinum from any other country), surely that is the equivalent of me bringing the same amount of money into this country in the form of £10, £20 and £50 pound notes - and I wouldn't be charged VAT on notes, would I!

Living down here on the South Coast, it's not a huge distance to the Channel Tunnel or Dover Ferry Port in Kent, and the idea of a trip over to the Low Countries, a spot of sight-seeing, a suitably "long lunch" maybe and then drop by GoldSilver.be to collect some coins is quite appealing.

If 4 people made the trip and we took advantage of any special offers/off-peak rates, then the tunnel/ferry and fuel costs could be divided up equally, it might still work out to our mutual advantage - maybe even do a "Group Order on Wheels (and yes, my vehicle does have a very good size boot!)

Or would UK Customs want a little chat with us when we returned to Blighty?

 

 

[sixgun]

Platinum coins are not 'tax free'.

None of the coins outside of Estonia are tax free even if they say they are. There is VAT in the prices. As i understand it they are being sold as second hand and have some VAT in the price. So if you were going to import the coins there should not be the full 20% on top of the website prices.

HMRC do not consider silver UK legal tender as being bought (exchanged) as legal tender - they consider it to be silver and tax it. So you will make no headway on the legal tender argument. You are correct there should be no tax but they have all the guns.

i have discussed the issue of VAT with a UK dealer. There is customs' legislation where silver coins which are ''collectors' items of numismatic interest' are charged 5% VAT and not 20%. The dealer feels there is a decent chance that when we are out of the EU we will be able to import silver coins with 5% VAT. 

You could take a trip to Germany or Belgium or wherever to buy coins. Would the dealers inform the UK tax authorities? You could bring them back in a car and dodge the pirates. They would call that smuggling. From a practical point of view you would need to buy a good deal. i think the incorporated VAT is about 8% - so in reality you should only be paying 12%. So the saving is not going to be as much as you might think. i think dealers like GS.be have small margins which is the other reason their prices are lower.

To make a trip worth it you would have to buy a decent chunk of silver. There is the fuel, the ferry costs and other expenses. With 4 people in the car and a decent stash of silver the car would be sitting a bit low. Such vehicles draw attention so a 4x4 might be a better vehicle.

The other option is to get the silver sent to an address in Eire and then bring it back via N Ireland but we do not know what the border between North and South will be like.

[AppleZippoandMetronome]

I have Googled this topic extensively as I return to see family and friends in Canada usually once a year and often want to bring back more silver than I am technically allowed to. Your biggest problem here is that silver coins are not treated as currency. You couldn't bring in for example 5000 Britannias and claim them as currency to try and avoid VAT. If you were able to do this we wouldn't currently be charged VAT when buying them from UK dealers. In all likely hood if the UK leaves the EU without a deal you'd probably find that you'd be able to bring back coins to a value (not face value but market value) of £390 before you are liable for VAT.

The above is based entirely on the rules that currently exist for travellers coming to the UK from outside the EU. That £390 figure is the total amount (value) of goods you are allowed to bring in before VAT is applied when entering the country from anywhere other than the EU. Obviously if you are bringing in multiple different items it all gets added up. There is no guarantee that the UK will apply these rules to Europe in a no deal Brexit but it seems likely given it is just easy to start treating everything the same.

You can of course try to circumvent the rules and not declare items but obviously if you get caught doing that you'll suddenly have a massive bill to pay at the border or lose your goods.

[Micky9776]

I’m also interested in this. Some of my girlfriends family live in Belgium and also Holland. We will be there at least once a year so will I will have to look into ways I could bring some back closer to the time or if/when/what ever happens that is lol. 

[Tingles]

3 hours ago, AppleZippoandMetronome said:

I have Googled this topic extensively as I return to see family and friends in Canada usually once a year and often want to bring back more silver than I am technically allowed to. Your biggest problem here is that silver coins are not treated as currency. You couldn't bring in for example 5000 Britannias and claim them as currency to try and avoid VAT. If you were able to do this we wouldn't currently be charged VAT when buying them from UK dealers. In all likely hood if the UK leaves the EU without a deal you'd probably find that you'd be able to bring back coins to a value (not face value but market value) of £390 before you are liable for VAT.

The above is based entirely on the rules that currently exist for travellers coming to the UK from outside the EU. That £390 figure is the total amount (value) of goods you are allowed to bring in before VAT is applied when entering the country from anywhere other than the EU. Obviously if you are bringing in multiple different items it all gets added up. There is no guarantee that the UK will apply these rules to Europe in a no deal Brexit but it seems likely given it is just easy to start treating everything the same.

You can of course try to circumvent the rules and not declare items but obviously if you get caught doing that you'll suddenly have a massive bill to pay at the border or lose your goods.

And the possibility of a criminal record.

[SilverSleeves]

I'm a bit hazy on the "legal tender" thing. Eg if Brittanias have a face value and bear the Queen's head, then are they not legal tender - and therefore should not be liable for VAT?

Also, if they are NOT legal tender, can they be legally scrapped without incurring the wrath of Her Majesty?

Particularly relevant if silver prices skyrocket - as they must, very soon.

[dicker]

4 hours ago, sixgun said:

Platinum coins are not 'tax free'.

None of the coins outside of Estonia are tax free even if they say they are. There is VAT in the prices. As i understand it they are being sold as second hand and have some VAT in the price. So if you were going to import the coins there should not be the full 20% on top of the website prices.

HMRC do not consider silver UK legal tender as being bought (exchanged) as legal tender - they consider it to be silver and tax it. So you will make no headway on the legal tender argument. You are correct there should be no tax but they have all the guns.

i have discussed the issue of VAT with a UK dealer. There is customs' legislation where silver coins which are ''collectors' items of numismatic interest' are charged 5% VAT and not 20%. The dealer feels there is a decent chance that when we are out of the EU we will be able to import silver coins with 5% VAT. 

You could take a trip to Germany or Belgium or wherever to buy coins. Would the dealers inform the UK tax authorities? You could bring them back in a car and dodge the pirates. They would call that smuggling. From a practical point of view you would need to buy a good deal. i think the incorporated VAT is about 8% - so in reality you should only be paying 12%. So the saving is not going to be as much as you might think. i think dealers like GS.be have small margins which is the other reason their prices are lower.

To make a trip worth it you would have to buy a decent chunk of silver. There is the fuel, the ferry costs and other expenses. With 4 people in the car and a decent stash of silver the car would be sitting a bit low. Such vehicles draw attention so a 4x4 might be a better vehicle.

The other option is to get the silver sent to an address in Eire and then bring it back via N Ireland but we do not know what the border between North and South will be like.

To be honest just fields mostly....

[CadmiumGreen]

3 minutes ago, dicker said:

To be honest just fields mostly....

You mean to tell me there’s no wall?!?😁

[dicker]

No wall, just nice people 🙂

[CadmiumGreen]

@dicker, Thank you! Definitely trust there are nice people...I really want to visit Ireland, along with a few other wonderful parts of the world.

Must admit, I have been to some not so pleasant locations...and I would truly like to offset that!

[dicker]

Same here - lots of hot and sandy places that are not so hospitable. 

Ireland is now a very friendly and great place to visit. Lots of Ireland had a lot rain, but also great fishing.  

Best 

dicker

[Coolsmp]

5 hours ago, AppleZippoandMetronome said:

I have Googled this topic extensively as I return to see family and friends in Canada usually once a year and often want to bring back more silver than I am technically allowed to. Your biggest problem here is that silver coins are not treated as currency. You couldn't bring in for example 5000 Britannias and claim them as currency to try and avoid VAT. If you were able to do this we wouldn't currently be charged VAT when buying them from UK dealers. In all likely hood if the UK leaves the EU without a deal you'd probably find that you'd be able to bring back coins to a value (not face value but market value) of £390 before you are liable for VAT.

The above is based entirely on the rules that currently exist for travellers coming to the UK from outside the EU. That £390 figure is the total amount (value) of goods you are allowed to bring in before VAT is applied when entering the country from anywhere other than the EU. Obviously if you are bringing in multiple different items it all gets added up. There is no guarantee that the UK will apply these rules to Europe in a no deal Brexit but it seems likely given it is just easy to start treating everything the same.

You can of course try to circumvent the rules and not declare items but obviously if you get caught doing that you'll suddenly have a massive bill to pay at the border or lose your goods.

How many times a year could you bring the £390 of silver back into the country?

[AppleZippoandMetronome]

6 minutes ago, Coolsmp said:

How many times a year could you bring the £390 of silver back into the country?

There isn't a stated limit in the guidelines:

https://www.gov.uk/duty-free-goods/arrivals-from-outside-the-eu

[Coolsmp]

10 minutes ago, AppleZippoandMetronome said:

There isn't a stated limit in the guidelines:

https://www.gov.uk/duty-free-goods/arrivals-from-outside-the-eu

Thanks for the link... so wife or partner would get £390 aswell.. do children have an allowance?

[SilverSleeves]

Things have become awfully complicated since the closed the "Sarnia" VAT-free  loophole a few years ago..

[dicker]

The problem is that when you create tarrif differentials you create a market.  I am sure that governments will be keen not to create this post Brexit, or indeed look ahead to try and minimise.  

[AppleZippoandMetronome]

3 minutes ago, Coolsmp said:

Thanks for the link... so wife or partner would get £390 aswell.. do children have an allowance?

Really can't say for certain as it isn't something I've looked in to before but I'd imagine they must have the same allowance. I think it is inevitable that when going abroad the kids would be bringing back stuff like souvenirs, toys, t-shirts, etc. These would all be items for their use and count towards a goods allowance.

[SilverSleeves]

What the Govt is most concerned with is screwing every possible penny in taxes they can get away with!