Goldsilver.be refuse to send my order?

[BackyardBullion]

@Kleiner

You asked to change the order. For those of you who missed it (neatly tucked away at the bottom of the email thread) here it is...

If I was the seller this excuse would ring many many alarm bells with me even if it is genuine, especially considering the amount of the order value!

I have said that the attitude with GS.be is not good and unacceptable, but with all due respect these issues are entirely of your own making because you either did not read or did not understand the terms of service.

I have placed over €60,000 with GS.be as part of the group orders over the last 18 months and never had issues ordering. When there have been issues with wrong or missing coins they have been exceptionally good at sorting the problems out.

 

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@Kleiner

[Martlet]

3 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

@Kleiner

You asked to change the order. For those of you who missed it (neatly tucked away at the bottom of the email thread) here it is...

...

If I was the seller this excuse would ring many many alarm bells with me even if it is genuine, especially considering the amount of the order value!

I have said that the attitude with GS.be is not good and unacceptable, but with all due respect these issues are entirely of your own making because you either did not read or did not understand the terms of service.

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Added 0 minutes later...

@Kleiner

In my mind the expected handling of this would be either: hold them to the order as per their terms; accept the reason and reduce the size of the order (50 rather than 100 kangaroos?); or having decided to cancel stipulate a cancellation fee.  This is a mess. 

[Croatianstacker]

19 minutes ago, sixgun said:

 

(idk but it keep quoting a post ...)

Actualy the situation is even more tricky because :

When do you have a withdrawal period?
You have a withdrawal period that allows you to change your mind, for example, when you have:

placed an order via the internet;

signed a purchase order during a door-to-door solicitation;

signed a credit agreement for the purchase of a car;

signed a contract in a marriage agency;

subscribes insurance;

entered into a contract with a real estate agency for the purchase of a building;

you have signed a timesharing contract.

As long as the specific conditions are fulfilled, you may cancel your purchase or your commitment without costs other than those legally provided and without stating the reasons.

ok this one is only in french https://economie.fgov.be/fr/themes/ventes/reglementation/delais-de-retractation

So belgian law say it's ok to cancel the order without paying and european law say you can't ? i don't know what law is applies.

[Lowlow]

I don't see why the OP doesn't see how the business owner feels about this, which should be REALLY EASY since it's exactly what happened to him.  The OP is literally doing to the business owner exactly what the person who was buying his watch was doing to him, making a deal, then backing out of it.  The OP is putting the business owner in the same position he is in ... what's to say the business owner hadn't gotten excited about the sale and taken the rest of the day off to spend with his/her kids ?  Or committed the money to a tax deposit ?  Or ?? Obviously all of that probably didn't happen ... because the business owner (unlike the OP) is probably used to dealing with people and didn't count his chickens before they hatched.  But it's not the business owner's problem that the OP's sale fell through, and it's curious to me that the OP is trying to make it the business owner's problem.

[Coolsmp]

Customer service should be paramount in any business so attempts to resolve this professionally should have been made...  If you are a stacker you need to take emotion out of the equation.. and think business investment.

[sixgun]

@Croatianstacker

Article 7 : Right of cancellation

Article VI.47 of the Economic Activity Code stipulates that the consumer has the right to notify the vendor that he is cancelling his purchase without penalty and without justification within 14 working days as from the day after the delivery of the product or the end of the service contract.

 This right of withdrawal does not extend to the professional buyer. 

However, Article VI.53 of the Economic Activity Code states that the consumer may only exercise the right of withdrawal specified in Article VI.47 for (2°-) for the provision of goods or services whose price depends on fluctuations in the financial market outside the supplier's control and likely to occur during the cancellation period. 

Also, neither the consumer nor the professional buyer has the right of withdrawal in their contractual relations with S.P.R.L. ELECTRUM.

[Lowlow]

3 minutes ago, Coolsmp said:

Customer service should be paramount in any business so attempts to resolve this professionally should have been made...  If you are a stacker you need to take emotion out of the equation.. and think business investment.

You've obviously never worked in something like construction LOL.  Try breaking a deal with someone who was going to show up at a job site and see what happens to you ... language can get "colorful" lol.

[Croatianstacker]

3 minutes ago, sixgun said:

@Croatianstacker

Article 7 : Right of cancellation

Article VI.47 of the Economic Activity Code stipulates that the consumer has the right to notify the vendor that he is cancelling his purchase without penalty and without justification within 14 working days as from the day after the delivery of the product or the end of the service contract.

 This right of withdrawal does not extend to the professional buyer. 

However, Article VI.53 of the Economic Activity Code states that the consumer may only exercise the right of withdrawal specified in Article VI.47 for (2°-) for the provision of goods or services whose price depends on fluctuations in the financial market outside the supplier's control and likely to occur during the cancellation period. 

Also, neither the consumer nor the professional buyer has the right of withdrawal in their contractual relations with S.P.R.L. ELECTRUM.

Well it's tricky because wich law could be applied the belgian one or the european one ?

Maybe the 2 applies i don't know .

[sixgun]

Just now, Croatianstacker said:

Well it's tricky because wich law could be applied the belgian one or the european one ?

Maybe the 2 applies i don't know .

European law trumps all - this is one of the reason there is Brexit.

[Coolsmp]

Surely European law would trump Belgium law

[Roy]

BYB has hit the nail on the head here.

The OP is at fault.

 

[BackyardBullion]

11 minutes ago, Roy said:

BYB has hit the nail on the head here.

The OP is at fault.

 

For anyone reading this thread and thinking about ordering (or not ordering) from GS.be it should be made clear that this issue the OP is talking about is completly his own making. GS.be are rightly sticking to their terms of business which all readily available to read on their site...READ THEM!!!! Especially if you are placing a €9,000 order!!!!

How many of you photograph the outsider of the boxes before opening? How many of you film each box being opened? I do this as a matter of course but it has helped greatly in working with them to resolve issues - because IT IS PART OF THEIR TERMS OF SERVICE!!

So I hope all of us (including @Kleiner) can see that this issue was of the OP's own making. However, this thread does once again raise some important information on the customer service skills of our favourite Belgian Bullion Dealer which is invaluable to all of you out there considering doing business with them.

[Seasider]

36 minutes ago, sixgun said:

the consumer may only exercise the right of withdrawal

Seems to me something has got lost in translation.  Only (ne que) should read NOT (ne pas).

[sixgun]

15 minutes ago, Seasider said:

Seems to me something has got lost in translation.  Only (ne que) should read NOT (ne pas).

well spotted that man.

https://goldsilver.be/fr/content/3-conditions-generales-de-ventes

Toutefois, l’article VI.53 du Code de droit économique dispose que le consommateur ne peut exercer le droit de rétractation prévu à l'article VI. 47 pour ( 2°- ) la fourniture de biens ou de services dont le prix dépend de fluctuations sur le marché financier échappant au contrôle de l'entreprise et susceptibles de se produire pendant le délai de rétractation .

The correct English translation of the French

However, Article VI.53 of the Code of Economic Law provides that the consumer may not exercise the right of withdrawal provided for in Article VI. 47 for (2 ° -) the supply of goods or services the price of which depends on fluctuations in the financial market beyond the control of the enterprise and which may occur during the withdrawal period.

This is not in the English site for goldsilver.be - they say the opposite thing - misstating the legislation doesn't alter the legislation however.

Having said that you could use it as a lever to get the damaged reduced or waived - you relied on the English version which says he could cancel the order.under the terms of Article VI. 47 for (2 ° -)

[Kleiner]

44 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

....it should be made clear that this issue the OP is talking about is completly his own making. GS.be are rightly sticking to their terms of business which all readily available to read on their site...READ THEM!!!! Especially if you are placing a €9,000 order!!!!

Well, they should have informed me back then, at the first place. Things wouldn't be so complicated now. Moreover, as mentioned before, I did not ask for cancellation. Yes, I admit that I should have await for my watch to be sold so I could pay. But mistake happens, and that's why I asked them to help me to "change" my order so it suited what I had (which they did by cancelling my order).

One thing is fore sure: If they would have said, no, we can not help you to do any change in the order. Then perhaps I could have solved the problem by borrowing money from my parents or payed a fee (if they suggested it). But they did not, instead they cancelled the order. Simply, I asked, they could have deny my request, but they did not. Why should I pay any charge now?. What if I made the purchase (the one which they refuse to ship) by 2040? Would they have said: Do you remember 2018 when we cancelled you order? Now you have to pay!

I came her to get some advice. Not to create a bad reputation about their company, not at all. I am willing to forget all this and keep buying for GS if we can figure out the problem in a sensible manner without me being called crook and liar. This only creates friction and mess and takes a lot of energy from both sides.

[Lowlow]

36 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

However, this thread does once again raise some important information on the customer service skills of our favourite Belgian Bullion Dealer which is invaluable to all of you out there considering doing business with them.

I don't know the dealer, but I have more respect for them since they're willing to demand they be treated fairly.  Business in the amounts of money that dealers often deal in isn't like buying shoes at Walmart ... hundreds, and more often thousands of dollars are involved, and it only works when people deal with each other in a fair and honest way.  Bullion deals are mostly men dealing with other men with a firm handshake and eye contact, there's not a lot of room for games and BS.  I don't have a problem with that.

[Goldhooked]

1 minute ago, Lowlow said:

I don't know the dealer, but I have more respect for them since they're willing to demand they be treated fairly.

I would have agreed with you if it wasn’t for the disgusting wording of their messages.  There is zero professionalism in the messages from this David bloke and absolutely no need to be like that.

I have dealt with far, far worse customers through my business but no matter how unreasonable  they are, my replies to them are always professional.  I have developed a particular set of skills....I am able to type the politest of replies whilst simultaneously shouting expletives at the screen  

[sixgun]

25 minutes ago, Kleiner said:

I came her to get some advice. Not to create a bad reputation about their company, not at all. I am willing to forget all this and keep buying for GS if we can figure out the problem in a sensible manner without me being called crook and liar. This only creates friction and mess and takes a lot of energy from both sides.

An important point has been highlighted by @Seasider - the terms and conditions on the English version of goldsilver.be have been mistranslated. With reference to cancellation of orders the English version says the opposite of the actual legislation - it says you can cancel the order without any penalty.

So i would go back to goldsilver.be having taken scene shots of their website in English - you should say you were aware of the terms and conditions of the contract on their English website. You have communicated to them in English so you would rely on what is in the English version of the website. The English version says you can cancel an order without any penalty. This was the basis on which you entered the contract. Now goldsilver.be are attempting to alter your contract with them and demand damages when no damages are due to them under the terms and conditions they have put on their English website. This has cause great distress to you. It has denied you the benefit of having your coins which are currently being withheld from you. On this occasion you are willing to overlook this as long as your coins are sent immediately.

Just to clarify - the English T&C's say:

Quote

Article VI.47 of the Economic Activity Code stipulates that the consumer has the right to notify the vendor that he is cancelling his purchase without penalty and without justification within 14 working days as from the day after the delivery of the product or the end of the service contract.

So here it say the consume has the right to cancel a purchase without penalty within 14 days.

Quote

This right of withdrawal does not extend to the professional buyer. 

Does not apply to you so we can ignore

Quote

However, Article VI.53 of the Economic Activity Code states that the consumer may only exercise the right of withdrawal specified in Article VI.47 for (2°-) for the provision of goods or services whose price depends on fluctuations in the financial market outside the supplier's control and likely to occur during the cancellation period. 

This is supposed to say that where the price of the goods or services is dependent on fluctuations in the financial markets which are outside the control of the seller there is no right of cancellation.

But what it actually says is you ONLY have the right to cancel if the price of the goods and services is dependent on fluctuations in the financial markets which are outside the control of the seller.

That is what they have put - they have made a mistake - so before this mistake is corrected use it to get yourself out of this mess.

[Abyss]

22 minutes ago, Kleiner said:

I came her to get some advice. Not to create a bad reputation about their company, not at all. I am willing to forget all this and keep buying for GS if we can figure out the problem in a sensible manner without me being called crook and liar. This only creates friction and mess and takes a lot of energy from both sides.

@Kleiner  I just want to say thank you for bringing the issue had with Goldsilver.be and everyone added to the thread with a lot of helpful and insightful information about the topic. A lot of valuable lessons I have learned as a result of this. I will still be placing orders via GoldSilver.be but more cautious and conscientious of what could happen.

[StackerNoob]

Having read the entire thread and in full possession of the facts, I will not be using gs.be again.

I understand that the OP was the one who broke the contract and that therefore a cancellation fee would be incurred. However, I have a real issue with the fact that this was not explicitly communicated with the OP until after the order had been cancelled. Gs.be are hiding behind their terms of service, which technically they are allowed to do, but in reality this is awful practice. And I’m  it sure what the law says about holding a second contract to ransom because of a previous contract breach, im pretty sure that IS illegal. If they weren’t happy they should not have agreed to the second contract which they have done by shipping part of the order and taking his money for it.

I have checked and around the time of the 8-10 hour wait between the order being created and then “cancelled”, the price of silver fluctuated between £11.70 and 11.87 per oz. Or in other words, 1.5%. So at the very very most, they could charge a fee of around 150 euros (let’s pretend for the sake of argument that they actually lost anything, which they didn’t at all, the stock didn’t magically get up and leave and return lighter the next day). That would include a small admin fee (I won’t accept anyone trying to tell me that glancing over a shoulder and checking they still had the stock on their shelves cost them anything, they hadn’t shipped the coins so at worst they moved a couple of boxes around a bit).

 

Im sorry but I have worked in many customer facing roles in my youth and would be sacked on the spot for dealing with a complaint like this. There is zero requirement for this attitude. 

Seems we have quite a few armchair lawyers in here tonight, and I’m quite shocked that many of you are willing to deal with a business that might talk to you like that if things go wrong.

 

Anyway that’s my two cents on the matter. I’m still besties with you all 🙂

 

[sixgun]

3 minutes ago, StackerNoob said:

Seems we have quite a few armchair lawyers in here tonight, and I’m quite shocked that many of you are willing to deal with a business that might talk to you like that if things go wrong.

i managed to get an LLM from Cardiff University - so i can call myself a lawyer but i am on my settee so not an armchair one.

The Silver Forum has some pretty amazing people as members - pilots, lawyers, merchant bankers, doctors, dentists, university lecturers, engineers.... never underestimate who is posting.

[vanderPoot]

I order, I pay, I receive

To each his own, but I happen to like cheap bullion coins

Will definitely keep using gs.be

[StackerNoob]

12 minutes ago, sixgun said:

The Silver Forum has some pretty amazing people as members - pilots, lawyers, merchant bankers, doctors, dentists, university lecturers, engineers.... never underestimate who is posting.

Oh I know. It’s the reason I keep coming back, I love this place. I happen to have a PhD myself. I’m simpny saying that probably 10 members have commented in a typically predatory lawyer type of way, the kind that don’t care for the the circumstances, but only for finding the one clause that will mean they win. 

End of the day, no matter how you frame it, this was an astoundingly poor show from gs.be from the start.

[Silverhunter]

all. I am willing to forget all this and keep buying for GS if we can figure out the problem in a sensible manner without me being called crook and liar. This only creates friction and mess and takes a lot of energy from both sides.

 

it seems like you may fall into three categories after this comment either 

1) a fool

2) a glutton for punishment 

3) a Christian 

i was brought up in a way that if this had happened to me and I considered trading with them again my parents would give me a couple of slaps then tell me I deserve everything I get.

[vanderPoot]

4 minutes ago, StackerNoob said:

End of the day, no matter how you frame it, this was an astoundingly poor show from gs.be from the start.

It started with not having money after topic starter bought something

I can see why gs.be felt like being played