Gold Brits vs Gold Sovs

[Xander]

Mainly bullion sovs for me, also older numismatic sovs have a rich history. 

[Abyss]

1oz Gold Britannia's - 2018/2019 when the come out. I don't own any gold Sovereigns or Gold Britannia's but I am more tempted by 1 oz gold Britannia oriental border could increase in premium because it is not a standard generic Sovereign or Britannia. Depends Royal Mint continue oriental border in 2019/2020.

[Kritika]

On ‎15‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 21:16, Tingles said:

Buy Sovereigns, liquid, easy to smuggle out if you need to leave in a hurry!!!!

Don’t ask!!

; )

Love the idea of Smuggling Sovs..... very James Bond briefcase stuff.

Sove are coming out way on top of anything else in this debate. They really are the way to go I think for so many reasons.

• Lowere premiums 
• Close to spot
• Easier  liquidity
• Easier verification 
• Easy availability on the second hand market 
• And easy to smuggle it seems 

 

 

 

[QStack]

Im deciding if i should to stack 1/4 oz brits or sovs.

They're of a similar size weight and price, just different purity.

So wouldn't a 1/4 oz brit be just as liquid as a sov?

[knighthawk]

A Brit is a grand, a Sov is about £230.

I'd get 4 Sovs over the Brit since you cant sell half of a Brit but you can sell 1 or 2 sovs of the 4.

That's just me though.

[Pritchard]

@Kritika

i started my stacking quest a couple months ago. Reading your post, I would say for the same reason - capital gains exceptand how to maximise profits in the future at sale. 

I now have various sovereigns, 1oz Brit, 1/2Brit, and oldVictoria sovs. (Also silver variations...)

 

having held eel to flesh these coins the post-2013 Brits (24ct) are like something from a comic book. Real pure gold that looks good and feels heavy. 

While I see the collectors argument for Sovs, in comparison to me they look like a copper coin, (the 7.% or so copper content on the 22ct coin is really dominating).

 

BUT.

ignore coin and if you are looking for max returns , then from my own buying and research YES Sovs will give a slightly better rate for buying and selling. AND being a smaller denominator should also be more liquid in private markets.

however, show around... I have found 3%~ that Hatton charge over spot is expensive compared to some cheaper firms. But, you need to factor

is postage (or fuel).

 

edut - bad English everywhere. Sorry. Wine. You get the pitch 

[Tingles]

4 hours ago, Kritika said:

Love the idea of Smuggling Sovs..... very James Bond briefcase stuff.

Sove are coming out way on top of anything else in this debate. They really are the way to go I think for so many reasons.

• Lowere premiums 
• Close to spot
• Easier  liquidity
• Easier verification 
• Easy availability on the second hand market 
• And easy to smuggle it seems 

 

 

 

😀 Believe me, the last point might save your life.

[richatthecroft]

Brits & Sovs plus Libs, Krug’s & QB’s

[Martlet]

9 hours ago, QStack said:

Im deciding if i should to stack 1/4 oz brits or sovs.

They're of a similar size weight and price, just different purity.

So wouldn't a 1/4 oz brit be just as liquid as a sov?

You'd think so, but doesn't seem to be the case.  They are a nice design and proper gold  a 1/4 makes at least as much sense for holding.  I assume that because of the older age and wider distribution of the Sovereign, there's more of them available from people selling, so more supply and dealers want to move on quickly.  And the premium from the mint is higher for the 1/4 oz so that must feed in to initial distribution.

[Tingles]

21 minutes ago, MrGeorge said:

Maybe just get a mixture of all the cgt free coins i know sovs might be very easy to sell fast but you said you will sell to a dealer when the time comes so it doesn’t matter what you are selling, the shop will take them all.

Also people always bang on about how sovs can help you out in a jam wtf if your life needs 200 odd pounds fast your really need to evaluate your life and never mind investing in anything 

If there’s major issues in the future, £200 in cash could become EXTREMELY useful.  I’m thinking Cyprus, capital controls, €60 a week could only be withdrawn from domestic banks, at the time - including credit card usage.  No one really keeps cash at home anymore, it’s all electronic.  Diversifying is a good thing.

[ilovesilverireallydo]

27 minutes ago, Martlet said:

You'd think so, but doesn't seem to be the case.  They are a nice design and proper gold  a 1/4 makes at least as much sense for holding.  I assume that because of the older age and wider distribution of the Sovereign, there's more of them available from people selling, so more supply and dealers want to move on quickly.  And the premium from the mint is higher for the 1/4 oz so that must feed in to initial distribution.

To be honest  - I deal with a lot of cash for gold and bullion dealers in the Jewellery Quarter in Birm. Sovs and half sovs come up very often and they will usually have stock. Brits of any denomination rarely do. I have only once gotten a 1/10 Brit. Krugs and Maples on the other hand come in less often than sovs, but are common. Not sure why the Brits dont come in that often - would love to pick up 1/4 Brits cheap if they were available. 

[ilovesilverireallydo]

26 minutes ago, MrGeorge said:

Also people always bang on about how sovs can help you out in a jam wtf if your life needs 200 odd pounds fast your really need to evaluate your life and never mind investing in anything 

There could be several reasons - you may have an opportunity to buy something that has better value and have blown your buying budget (happens to me often) or you prefer not to touch your cash savings, etc etc. Plus some people stack and dont save cash - I know I used to as any cash in the bank was just spent cause it was "just there". 

[ilovesilverireallydo]

7 minutes ago, MrGeorge said:

 If 200 odd pound could help me out I wouldn’t even consider investing in anything that i might have to sell short term, your just banging your head against a brick wall.



Last week I sold 3 sovs at £5 loss each. Total loss £15. (£660 for the lot)
That allowed me to buy 51 silver 1 ounce coins I had a deal on. 


Sold the 50 for £15 each (I had a buyer ready) =

£750 -660-15 = £75 profit quick flip. 

Whole thing took couple of hours. Didnt need to dip in and out of my cash reserves, could easily replace the gold AND add a bunch of cheap Brits for the difference into my pile. 
 

[watchesandwhisky]

59 minutes ago, MrGeorge said:

Maybe just get a mixture of all the cgt free coins i know sovs might be very easy to sell fast but you said you will sell to a dealer when the time comes so it doesn’t matter what you are selling, the shop will take them all.

Also people always bang on about how sovs can help you out in a jam wtf if your life needs 200 odd pounds fast your really need to evaluate your life and never mind investing in anything 

I think this comes down to the SAS being given 20 sovereigns on operation to buy/barter their way out of bad situations/ acquire a vehicle ect. Sovs are more known the world over.

[ilovesilverireallydo]

5 minutes ago, MrGeorge said:

That’s irrelevant what you sold them for i sold a pair of trainers last week for x3 there retail price but not many other people could do that. We are talking about the OP he’s already told us what he can get sovs for and hes also said hes not selling private he will sell to a dealer so we know his situation.

I am just responding to your comment "Well its still really bad if your selling to buy so something else.

All I am saying is you are generalising about situations based on just your opinion There are several different viewpoints. It doesn't hinge on OPs question but rather your comments. 

[Kritika]

I suppose the whole question is down to the fundamentals of buying and selling Gold Sovs in this day and age.

If your buying from a dealer at +3% over spot. Then intending to only ever sell to a dealeler at -2% under spot, and you sold to the dealer on the same day. You would of course lose 5% on the deal.

So the choices you face are simple actually.

1. You need to wait till the spot goes up by at least 5% to break even before you can sell.
2. You don’t mind the risk of losing the 5% if you had to sell the same day to a dealer as you are actually in it for the long term as a saving disaplin and willing to take the risk of forced early liquidation. 
3. Or you don’t care about the 5% loss risk as you are hiding money and you don’t mind the loss if it means the money is liquid and is tax and vat free when you sell.

I think most people fall into category #2, and try to mitigate this by selling privately when the time comes to liquidate to avoide the -2% loss of selling to dealers.

Of course there are a few other scenarios, but those are the main ones I think.

[Tingles]

9 minutes ago, Kritika said:

I suppose the whole question is down to the fundamentals of buying and selling Gold Sovs in this day and age.

If your buying from a dealer at +3% over spot. Then intending to only ever sell to a dealeler at -2% under spot, and you sold to the dealer on the same day. You would of course lose 5% on the deal.

So the choices you face are simple actually.

1. You need to wait till the spot goes up by at least 5% to break even before you can sell.
2. You don’t mind the risk of losing the 5% if you had to sell the same day to a dealer as you are actually in it for the long term as a saving disaplin and willing to take the risk of forced early liquidation. 
3. Or you don’t care about the 5% loss risk as you are hiding money and you don’t mind the loss if it means the money is liquid and is tax and vat free when you sell.

I think most people fall into category #2, and try to mitigate this by selling privately when the time comes to liquidate to avoide the -2% loss of selling to dealers.

Of course there are a few other scenarios, but those are the main ones I think.

Yes... Item 3 - he might be saving 40% income tax or whatever inheritance tax is, as his rich Great Uncle has left him a VERY LARGE biscuit tin with a stash of cash (£200k?), why bother HMRC? They're far too busy!!!

[Kritika]

1 hour ago, Tingles said:

Yes... Item 3 - he might be saving 40% income tax or whatever inheritance tax is, as his rich Great Uncle has left him a VERY LARGE biscuit tin with a stash of cash (£200k?), why bother HMRC? They're far too busy!!!

Brilliant @Tingles  😎

[Abyss]

Premiums pay over spot when buying and receive below spot when selling are the negative aspect of PMs.

Crazy world when you don't have to physically own an once of silver of gold but can open leverage futures account (CDF/Spread betting) and have the ability to go long or short silver or gold with margin.

Go long/short Gold Silver spread in gold $0.10 cents and silver 0.005 (half cent).

Margin need per future contract. Gold 100 troy ounces and silver 5,000 troy ounces per futures contract.

So for example believe gold go lower over the next two weeks get GC Dec 2018 futures contract overnight margin £38,750 dollars control 1,000 ounces gold (1.2 million dollars current spot rate).

Paper it is so easy to move in and out of a position while paying little premium (spread buy/ask price) but physical different ball game.

[Kritika]

4 hours ago, Abyss said:

Premiums pay over spot when buying and receive below spot when selling are the negative aspect of PMs.

Crazy world when you don't have to physically own an once of silver of gold but can open leverage futures account (CDF/Spread betting) and have the ability to go long or short silver or gold with margin.

Go long/short Gold Silver spread in gold $0.10 cents and silver 0.005 (half cent).

Margin need per future contract. Gold 100 troy ounces and silver 5,000 troy ounces per futures contract.

So for example believe gold go lower over the next two weeks get GC Dec 2018 futures contract overnight margin £38,750 dollars control 1,000 ounces gold (1.2 million dollars current spot rate).

Paper it is so easy to move in and out of a position while paying little premium (spread buy/ask price) but physical different ball game.

There is a story somewhere on the forum about somone doing that in the states and litraly losing the shirt of their back with all the hidden costs involved, I think it was called a tale of caution to something. It was on a few weeks ago. Anyway it’s certainly not so thing I would ever do, theres no such thing as get rich quick 🙄

[terakris]

23 hours ago, Abyss said:

1oz Gold Britannia's - 2018/2019 when the come out. I don't own any gold Sovereigns or Gold Britannia's but I am more tempted by 1 oz gold Britannia oriental border could increase in premium because it is not a standard generic Sovereign or Britannia. Depends Royal Mint continue oriental border in 2019/2020.

 

I have one of these... its lovely!

[Abyss]

@Kritika you are 100% right. Gamble on the futures market (CFD/Spread betting) spot price (Gold/Silver/Oil/Currencies/Stock Indexes) you could easily lose you shirt. Margin 10 Gold futures contract ($38,750) and price moved against you by 38 dollars in gold (more than feasible when volatility in Gold picks up) that would wipe out your entire account in a single day.

I am trying to make two points.

The futures market great tool to hedge you physical position in a commodity. For example had 10,000 ounces of silver bought in September 2019 for spot price $14 + premium bullion coins. In 2019 prices reach $18 dollars and you do not believe that prices would go higher. Want to lock in half the money that you have made in physical metal without having to liquidate half your position a single future contract would allow you to lock in the profits.

2nd point is the cost of entry and exit (spread/premium) in the paper market of gold and silver 0.01% in relationship to the spot price.

 

[HawkHybrid]

2 hours ago, Abyss said:

The futures market great tool to hedge you physical position in a commodity

 

why would you do this? physical pm's is not a contract to sell

by a certain date. if prices go down I would just wait it out.

physical metal is not ideal for short term trading.

 

HH

[Abyss]

Yes physical metals long term and wealth preservation and I am happy to pass onto my children.

But what does Silver/Bitcoin and Crude oil all have in common? Parabolic moves in the past. You can view these charts for free via https://uk.tradingview.com/

What is a Parabolic Move? http://www.prometheusmi.com/2010/10/14/what-is-a-parabolic-move/

PMs have another parabolic move and the poop not hit the fan chances of liquidating physical position at spot going to be a hard process. Only way lock in value of your physical possession (in my humble opinion) via the futures market. Just part of my exit strategy.

[HawkHybrid]

my understanding is that the physical pm market and the paper

trading market are 2 completely different markets. as such

successful strategies used on each market should also be

completely different and unique to the market you are

concentrating on. positions in both can be taken independently

of each other. what is the benefit of linking the 2 strategies?

if you are able to time the tops and bottoms in the paper market

and profit from it, then do so. if not then try something else.

whether or not you have physical pms is not a requirement to

trade on the paper markets. I don't see how linking the 2 is any

better than using 2 independent strategies?

 

'For example had 10,000 ounces of silver bought in September 2019 for spot price $14 + premium bullion coins.'

 

would you deliver premium bullion coins to settle a futures

contract that went against you by a fixed date?

 

HH