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End game / why stack / why collect


SilverFlame

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I find the topic very interesting since I'm still figuring out what my main focus is for the silver I buy. To answer some of your questions from my point of view:

  • As said: I don't have a focus in stacking. So far it's a combination of stacking purely for the value and numismatic purchases (so far not the graded coins, just some higher premium coins).
  • I'm not in the game for that long and haven't sold anything yet. I have the same problem you have I guess: Local dealers offer less than the actual value, but I found one online that still offers decent prices (i.e. maple leaf €15,30 where that costs €17,- on goldsilver.be at the moment). I'll have to wait and see whether my exit improves. I expect I can sell the more numismatic coins with profit through online auctions like eBay.
  • I agree with securing the purchasing power as well, I guess in line with what KDave said. I expect that the value will at least move with the inflation (kind of a hedge against that). If at one point the inflation increases, value of silver will increase because of the limited supply/reserve. Besides that I like having the tangible goods instead of the paper money.
  • I think there are at least some indicators there will be some market-issues in the coming years (I agree with you: not to 0 indeed). I don't have them on top of my head (it's not my main reason for stacking), but I read some stuff with a comparison to the 2008 crisis, where to same trends pre-crisis showed as you can see now.
  • Besides flipping some numismatics for profit I also don't see a major income source in silver.

I think I have the same doubts as you have. But for some I guess I have a bit of the same issue zeusss4 stated:

7 hours ago, zeusss4 said:

My reason is very simple. I'm a waster lol. I've spent all my money on nothing including a lot gambling. I haven't gambled in 2 month and have bought precious metal instead. 

Short term I think I've done quite well apart from a couple of over priced common sovs at the start. 

For example two 10oz bars I've picked up, I've turned down £40 and £45 profit on each. I've also picked up a 10g gold bar from this forum for below spot 

if you shop about and spend some research time (ask my missus about this lol) investment increase, in my opinion can be very good 

I changed jobs and have some more spending room at the moment. Now I found myself spending the excess on a lot of stuff. Not all for waste, paintings, minerals and stuff like that (stuff that at least hold some value and I can enjoy placed around my house), but now I have something to satisfy my spending-need while not really loosing it into a "black hole".

To end it, kudos to AgD:

4 hours ago, AgD said:

My reason for it is a simple one.

For my children 

Things in life happen and that has ment that I've not been able to purchase my own home so I don't have that luxury to leave them so instead I've been ingesting in silver for them but with some of it when the time has been right I've moved bits on and slowly turning some into gold in the form of sovereigns so they will have a mix of silver and gold.

And if you can buy close to spot on most things then you can accumulate a lot in little time with any budget.

So my end game is that it's all there's when the time comes for me to push up the daisys they can do as the please with it carry on or sell, but I will make sure they are educated in where, when, how etc how to look at spot prices to make sure they get a fair price.

So it's just not an investment for my children but also an educational ride as well 

I think that is a really good purpose. Securing their future, while teaching them the value of money and goods. Especially with the money becoming more and more digital, having tangible money/value makes it easier to show that value.

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since it was fixed at ~15:1 in the early 1900's until now the

gold to silver ratio have been on a mostly widening trend.

it's currently ~80:1. so since the 1900's until now(hold and

forget strategy) gold would have outperformed silver. if

this trend continues then for long term holdings without

trading gold is expected to outperform silver. imo holding

some gold is better than none. in the uk(didn't realise you

are not uk based) the gold sovereign is one of the best ways

to hold some gold. the low spread in trading gold sovereigns

means that you only require a ~6% rise in the gold price to

break even. since the dec 2015 low of ~$1050, gold has risen

~$250 in about 2.5 years, or averaging ~$100/year or ~8-9%

per year. so should you decide/need to sell after a year of

rising gold prices you are likely to be at least break even. this

liquidity means gold is a much better choice for use as savings

than silver. it makes gold a better choice as part of other

strategies too.

 

HH

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11 hours ago, HawkHybrid said:

since it was fixed at ~15:1 in the early 1900's until now the

gold to silver ratio have been on a mostly widening trend.

it's currently ~80:1. so since the 1900's until now(hold and

forget strategy) gold would have outperformed silver. if

this trend continues then for long term holdings without

trading gold is expected to outperform silver. imo holding

some gold is better than none. in the uk(didn't realise you

are not uk based) the gold sovereign is one of the best ways

to hold some gold. the low spread in trading gold sovereigns

means that you only require a ~6% rise in the gold price to

break even. since the dec 2015 low of ~$1050, gold has risen

~$250 in about 2.5 years, or averaging ~$100/year or ~8-9%

per year. so should you decide/need to sell after a year of

rising gold prices you are likely to be at least break even. this

liquidity means gold is a much better choice for use as savings

than silver. it makes gold a better choice as part of other

strategies too.

 

HH

Would you choose to buy 2x sovereigns or 1 1/2 oz coin if u had the funds?? 

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22 hours ago, SilverFlame said:

Well that was vague lol.. 

Thank you for all your time and answers. You have been very helpful and I wish u well in your future silver endeavors. 

Pms are INSURANCE. Most of us don't sit there looking at our insurance policies and saying "what a stunning buy I made" until after the fact.

It is ALL about staying in the game. Silver is something to be accumulated and stockpiled for times of trouble. But the trick is that you have to buy it during normal times when it is undervalued. You can't wait for the crisis. Most people won't stay the course. They'll buy a few batches and then get fed up waiting for the moonshot. Physical sales are at multi-year lows which tell you everything you need to know about those who haven't managed to stay the course.. most buyers have washed out and fallen away. They haven't managed to stay in the game. Silver hasn't done what they were hoping for it to do in the timeframe that they were expecting. If you go into this with a definite end-game in mind then you will certainly become discouraged and disinterested when that end-game doesn't play out. You will fall by the wayside and you will no longer still be in the game. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, SilverFlame said:

Would you choose to buy 2x sovereigns or 1 1/2 oz coin if u had the funds?? 

 

there's little in it really. 2 sovereigns for the stack, straight and

narrow. the odd half oz if you already have a sovereign backup

in place, could make holding the coins a little more interesting.

(half oz needs to be uk cgt free)

 

HH

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I collect because I like the look of it. I only have about 20 oz or so mostly hand poured silver that I can hold and look at. I have no plan to sell any silver I buy. My wee boy will get the lot.

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It's not often you can get something that ticks the splurge, binge spending , inherently good quality, nice to have around,  and a sporting chance to increase in value boxes. Silver fits. 

But, it's also magnetic one piece soon attracts more and very easy to get into a momentum. Personally I'm happy to stack for pleasure with business potential a great backstop.

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I'm not thinking about the end game, when the time comes the end will tell me.

I am stacking for the long haul. I lack the ability to save cash, and the longer I have silver the more I want to keep it. I'm stacking for the long run, I'm a fan of one ounce bars. It reminds me that even though I don't have a $1 at the end of the week, I'll have something when I decide to hang up my working boots, and put on the fishing boots.

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'I'll have something when I decide to hang up my working boots, and put on the fishing boots.'

Yes, a lot of silver. And then what?

?

Technically, alcohol is a solution..

'It [socialism] poses a growing threat, however unintentional, to the freedom of this country, for there is no freedom where the State totally controls the economy. Personal freedom and economic freedom are indivisible. You can’t have one without the other. You can’t lose one without losing the other.'

"There is no such thing as public money, there is only taxpayers' money"

Let not England forget her precedence of teaching nations how to live.

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3 minutes ago, Roy said:

'I'll have something when I decide to hang up my working boots, and put on the fishing boots.'

Yes, a lot of silver. And then what?

?

Lose it all in a fishing boat accident...

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I think most people will.

You can't just stack silver and expect everything to be alright. It's lazy.

People used to rely on their pensions but you can't anymore. Same with silver.

It won't 'work' for you, you have to work it like the commodity it is.

Silver worries me, it's why I stack gold too.

Technically, alcohol is a solution..

'It [socialism] poses a growing threat, however unintentional, to the freedom of this country, for there is no freedom where the State totally controls the economy. Personal freedom and economic freedom are indivisible. You can’t have one without the other. You can’t lose one without losing the other.'

"There is no such thing as public money, there is only taxpayers' money"

Let not England forget her precedence of teaching nations how to live.

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For me it's like: IF there is a SHTF situation I should be able to buy things with silver coins. Gold will be wealth conservation for the future economic system.

If nothing happens my baby girl will have the 'problem' of getting rid of all the stuff :D 

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When I initially began stacking silver in earnest, it was largely because I believed that I was hedging against the collapse of the dollar. That's still a motivating factor, but not as much. It's possible, however unlikely, that the US gov't could oust the Fed (they've kicked out the private debt-based banks a few times in the nation's history), and then the gov't can begin issuing the money, just like they should be doing. Just money issued, as is, with whatever it's face value is. It's its own backing (fiat). No need for any central stores of precious metals to give it value.

In that case, the silver and gold we all hold will likely have a lot of value, but it won't be a necessity like many of us think it'll be. So...I've been leaning toward balancing the stack with as much gold as I can, and not a much emphasis on silver. Now it's a hobby as much as it is a hedge.

And some day maybe my stack will be worth more than I paid to get it. It exists to exist at this point.

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I stack silver/gold because I enjoy it, that's pretty much the only reason. Before getting into pm's I used to buy a lot of useless junk like electronics that I only used once or twice - essentially a waste of money. So stacking silver is a win win for me. Enjoyable and it preserves my wealth.

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  • 1 month later...
On 07/06/2018 at 22:12, SilverFlame said:

Hello all 

 

So i have been browsing the forum for a few hours now. Trying to get as much info in to my scull as possible in that given time. I see allot of silver here silver there, do you have, look what i have, my stack and other requests and topics like this. But what i cant seem to find is the. 

  • Why do people stack.
  • how does this play out when you want to sell. 
  • who do you sell to. ( if you answer with "when there are sellers there are buyers", you do not understand my question)
  • Its claimed that you secure your purchasing power. How so? If silver wont increase in value then your premiums will leave everyone at a loos or break even. 
  • There is not allot of indicators pointing to a soon to be financial crisis where fiat drops to 0. 
  • No signs of stocks crashing. 
  • Silver does not seem to be a secondary income where your investment makes you more money. Right now bullion is a dorment investment with no option to sell with a gain. 

I am very new to the silver world and have bought a few things here and there, but the more i looked in to it i find my self struggeling to see when and where the win of silver is. 

I like silver and i will keep buying silver but i will not be using the money i first intended unless i find a reason to. And i need the brilliant minds of the community here to brainstorm with me. 

 

I do not hope that i come off as being offensive in this post, my mind is just riddled with questions that i am looking for answers for. 

I hope we can have a constructive debate where all oppinions can flow freely. 

 

Kind Regards 

SilverFlame 

What about people's opinions on bullet point three of the original question? I have only been buying physical silver and gold for a year and have never sold. Assuming it was the right time to sell for your personal circumstances, EBay seems like a prima facie good idea for selling as you might reach a huge audience but I'd be wary of being scammed by the buyer with fraudulent claims that I'd sent a fake. I don't know how these claims would play out but I imagine ebay would do little investigation and generally side with the buyer. Has anyone got any experience of that?

A trusted forum of members like this one might be better for that reason and maybe the potential customer base is not much reduced from ebay after all. 

 

Failing that, if a lot of your stack was low premium over spot at the time of your purchase then can you take it to four or five local jewellers and pick the best price? Surely the best liquidity if spot is well over what you paid. 

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7 hours ago, Blockhead said:

four or five local jewellers and pick the best price? Surely the best liquidity if spot is well over what you paid. 

This seems to me to be the easiest way to take a hit.

I think the exit strategy for a quantity of gold bullion has to be a trip to a bullion dealer like HGM or Atkinsons and unload the lot for close to spot. HGM are buying sovs and krugs at -2%

Silver and Numismatics... not so easy.

 

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The current state in the U.K brings up a quicker possibility to convert precious metals to cash. Brexit is a time when during upheaval all kinds of money and goods will likely be in flux. Solid purchasing up to that point could be profitable. But then if it hits the fan , it will affect everything!. Not an end game, but certainly equivalent to a season finale. 

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I stack for long term storage of my labor. There are many long term comparisons of ounces of ag/au maintaining purchasing power. One is a fine mans suit of clothing vs an ounce of au. There are others you can find online such as an average home price over the last 100 years. The same amount of au would have purchased a new home over that time period. Of course those are all averages, but the message is the same. Over long periods of time the metals preserve purchasing power. 

In the central banking fractional reserve system we live our purchasing power is eroded. I am not preparing for doomsday or the collapse of the system, but instead attempting to avoid the erosion of purchasing power. If doomsday happens then stackers are well positioned to transition to whatever new system arises. There is no question (at least in my humble opinion) that the fractional reserve banking system is a Ponzi scheme. It requires inflation to continue. Deflation is the kryptonite to central bankers. Perpetual inflation erodes purchasing power. The US Federal Reserve targets 2% inflation.  In the US the official inflation rate is stated as CPI which I believe is grossly understated. That is a wholly different conversation. So a 2% inflation rate over 10 years is a 1/5 loss of purchasing power. That is huge in my opinion. Of course there are market ups and downs of both metal and fiat, but over the long game metals preserve purchasing power. That is my main reason for stacking. It provides a ballast. 

 

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Prices being banged down again today. i expect the target is $1200. The USD is strong. i see the Turkish lira has been hit and the South African rand spiked down recently. All outside the favoured circle with South Africa in BRICS and Turkey moving towards Russia/China. Both has gold in the ground or in vaults. i expect parties will be buying physical now - getting it as cheap as possible before squeezing the paper shorts. The speculative money is short and the swap dealers are long - signal for an upcoming reversal in price.

There will be very large bids at $1200 in gold. There will be very large bids sitting at $15 in silver. These will be bids for physical delivery not paper profits. 

@SilverFlame  you might be interested in looking at Kinesis. This is selling tokens for funding at the moment, although they have all the funds they need. It will be issuing digital title of ownership over gold and silver which will be recorded on the Stellar blockchain and held in wallets which will be linked to a bank account. Depending how you hold the Kinesis 'coins' in the system there is a yield from your investment. If you want to hold your physical there is no income and if you conventionally vault it, then it costs. Metal in the Kinesis system will be vaulted in the Allocated Bullion Exchange vaults. So safely vaulted and income generating. You will  be able to spend coins on a card (Visa Mastercard) convertable into fiat for the retailer, coins will also be transferable and transmittable over the blockchain. It is in effect the monetisation of metals. One KAU is 1g of gold and 1 KAG is 10g of silver. There will be wholesale size coins - KWS is 1000oz silver and KWG is 1kg gold. These will be for trading purposes mainly.

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

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Lots of reasons to stack...

  • Fun
  • Savings
  • Hedge against inflation
  • Peace of mind

First, stacking is fun. It’s neat having different rounds, coins, and bars. Also, it doesn’t take long for silver to start really adding (stacking) up and once you get, say 500-1000 ounces you’ve got a respectable amount of value that can save you in a pinch (lost your job and need six months living expenses, etc.). Inflation eats away at paper savings, so having some silver and gold hedges against those forces. And lastly, it gives me piece of mind knowing I have a stack in case something did happen. You always read about having 3-6 months of expenses saved and it’s tough to do with fiat currency, but metals help make that process much easier.

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On 14/08/2018 at 02:14, Professor said:

Lots of reasons to stack...

  • Fun
  • Savings
  • Hedge against inflation
  • Peace of mind

First, stacking is fun. It’s neat having different rounds, coins, and bars. Also, it doesn’t take long for silver to start really adding (stacking) up and once you get, say 500-1000 ounces you’ve got a respectable amount of value that can save you in a pinch (lost your job and need six months living expenses, etc.). Inflation eats away at paper savings, so having some silver and gold hedges against those forces. And lastly, it gives me piece of mind knowing I have a stack in case something did happen. You always read about having 3-6 months of expenses saved and it’s tough to do with fiat currency, but metals help make that process much easier.

I think you should have 3-6 months of cash before and as well as a stack of precious metals. Having to convert your stack to cover living expenses is a guaranteed loss maker.

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2 hours ago, vand said:

I think you should have 3-6 months of cash before and as well as a stack of precious metals. Having to convert your stack to cover living expenses is a guaranteed loss maker.

In an ideal world, I 100% agree.  You gotta start somewhere.  2/3's of American's have less than $1000 saved for RETIREMENT, let alone emergency funds.  Stackers generally I have found are at least aware of what they need to be doing (saving, investing, stacking) and trying their best to do it every month.

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In 5 years I have made more on £1000 of silver than £10,000 in a high interest bond in the bank, I have not lost money on a single item I bought, it is a longer term investment, but if you can make it a hobby too it makes it all the more fun.

It is gambling at the end of the day but its safe gambling, its not like flushing it all down the bog going to a casino or betting shop, yeah you might get the odd turd stick to the side and make a small win, but nothing like what you put in, and I know people who have never blocked the bog despite gambling all their life, how much money they must of wasted and have nothing to show for it afterwards.

I stack because I love the look of silver and other precious metal bars, I have made many investments in the past that were far riskier than this and made a lot of money, then lost loads, one thing I noticed in these times of change and uncertainty, when something global happens, it quite often effects the PM market in a good way.

And finally we are in a win win situation collecting/stacking PM's, when the price is high we made a huge profit, when the price is really low its time to buy.

 

 

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