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Fractionals and fakes


MickD

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When I first decided to invest in bullion. I bought my first gold coin. Like soo many I fell foul of a fake. I knew it was going to be a small coin, because of size, I was assuming it was similar to a Brittiania , oops. I bought a fake Krugerrand.  Well it's a copper Krugerrand not what I bought was advertised at the time. It stayed in my stack for a year. It only came to light when I had my bullion picked up and the storage company I used called me with the alert. As they check everything, I had it mailed back to me. I long forgotten about it until I seen this post. I will dig it out of my FAKE box of coins bars etc. And post a picture. 

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Fake 1/2 Sov No.:5

IMG_7915.thumb.JPG.956a5c559b27f9ed86bf84ba23210431.JPG

IMG_7914.thumb.JPG.e72950ad58880b82f50c409401d3f7cf.JPG

The reverse with its awful legend is the clearest giveaway, the obverse is harder to fault except for the pearls in the section "EX F."

weight: 3.973g

diameter: 19.45mm

 

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2 hours ago, augur said:

The reverse with its awful legend is the clearest giveaway, the obverse is harder to fault except for the pearls in the section "EX F."

weight: 3.973g

diameter: 19.45mm

The wear on the reverse looks totally wrong; too much in some areas and too little in others. Also looks like file damage.

Profile picture with thanks to Carl Vernon

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Just an update on Fake 2 and 3: after receiving the refund today the eBay seller has started to put these coins back up as genuine for £170 or best offer. 

Item number 1915S: 153055645718

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1 hour ago, augur said:

Just an update on Fake 2 and 3: after receiving the refund today the eBay seller has started to put these coins back up as genuine for £170 or best offer. 

Item number 1915S: 153055645718

They're halves, right?:P

If they were full ones, I'd be in smartish for a bit of cheap bullion:ph34r:

Profile picture with thanks to Carl Vernon

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1 hour ago, augur said:

Just an update on Fake 2 and 3: after receiving the refund today the eBay seller has started to put these coins back up as genuine for £170 or best offer. 

Item number 1915S: 153055645718

And seller states:

"All of my soverigns have been assessed and graded by a professional at probate."

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  • 4 weeks later...

There are two half sovereigns from the reign of Edward VII but with the obverse showing George V on eBay...

item no.: 183305371590 (1904)

item no.: 183305375624 (1910)

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  • 7 months later...
On 07/06/2018 at 19:17, Coincollector said:

Like Roy and Augur, I have had a few Sydney half sovs that look good but measure wider in diameter than they should. All other mesurements are spot on.

I have recently picked up this 1883 Sydney Full that measures 22.20mm wide (0.15mm) larger than it should be. I will post a photo of this one. All other measurements and weight are spot on. The coin is confirmed to be 22ct on xrf. Does this coin look like a fake? 

Could it be that somehow some Sydney mint sovereigns and half’s were a fraction larger than they should be? Or are all of these oversized Sydney coins fakes. There does seem to be a lot of oversized diameter Sydney mints.

 

BDD16F40-A925-48F1-8481-7A17423D1A77.jpeg

839D05AF-2078-437D-8EA2-0866FE06A839.jpeg

Did you ever get a satisfactory answer about whether the Sydney sovereigns were fractionally wider than the London ones?

Today I was comparing the colour of some Sydney and London Young Head sovereigns side by side, and the Sydney one seemed to be slightly wider than the London one.  I thought it was my imagination, but having seen this post, maybe it was not my imagination.

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It is very hard to get any committing statement from someone knowledgeable on sovereigns. Maybe the "unmighty crown"would be one but he has been banned for his "gentle art to abuse".

I am certainly not knowledgeable enough but can say as much as all dies (and that should include the outer ring) were produced by the Royal Mint in the Tower of London. It would be surprising if only the Sydney Mint had a larger outer ring. Sydney Mint sovereigns do fetch a premium beyond 22 ct which could make it a worthwhile exercise. 

Maybe one of you wanted to contact the Royal Mint directly to pop the question?

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 08/06/2018 at 04:17, Coincollector said:

Like Roy and Augur, I have had a few Sydney half sovs that look good but measure wider in diameter than they should. All other mesurements are spot on.

I have recently picked up this 1883 Sydney Full that measures 22.20mm wide (0.15mm) larger than it should be. I will post a photo of this one. All other measurements and weight are spot on. The coin is confirmed to be 22ct on xrf. Does this coin look like a fake? 

Could it be that somehow some Sydney mint sovereigns and half’s were a fraction larger than they should be? Or are all of these oversized Sydney coins fakes. There does seem to be a lot of oversized diameter Sydney mints.

 

BDD16F40-A925-48F1-8481-7A17423D1A77.jpeg

839D05AF-2078-437D-8EA2-0866FE06A839.jpeg

It's not that easy to measure 0.15mm difference is size. Can I ask how you measured it? My calipers have an accuracy of ±0.2mm, so I wouldn't lean too much on them when measuring fractions of a mm. Uneven wear patterns on the milling can also result in the diameter of the coin being very slightly different (fractions of a mm) each time you measure it, depending on where you place the calipers.

Eric

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Hi Eric, thanks for your reply. I used calipers that have an accuracy of 0.01mm I have measured all the sovereigns I have had and this is the only full which comes out larger. A couple of half Sydney’s are also a fraction larger diameter then they should be. I might get it graded to find out. Any idea on a rough grade it could achieve if was found to to be real?

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On 31/05/2018 at 20:56, Seasider said:

So here's a test.  Mellors & Kirk have two 1911 sovereigns for auction one of which they describe a "a deceptive jeweller's copy".  Who can tell which is which?

https://www.mellorsandkirk.com/sales/sale-catalogues/fs130618/lot/136

Very deceptive - I can’t tell

Not my circus, not my monkeys

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On 31/05/2018 at 16:26, Seasider said:

So here's a test.  Mellors & Kirk have two 1911 sovereigns for auction one of which they describe a "a deceptive jeweller's copy".  Who can tell which is which?

https://www.mellorsandkirk.com/sales/sale-catalogues/fs130618/lot/136

After my experience with the Jubilee Head I would say left obverse (less detailed eye and nose) and right reverse (wear on hand and boot while other high points are not affected)

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On 08/03/2019 at 15:35, Coincollector said:

Hi Eric, thanks for your reply. I used calipers that have an accuracy of 0.01mm I have measured all the sovereigns I have had and this is the only full which comes out larger. A couple of half Sydney’s are also a fraction larger diameter then they should be. I might get it graded to find out. Any idea on a rough grade it could achieve if was found to to be real?

Do you have a link to the calipers you use?

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5 hours ago, augur said:

After my experience with the Jubilee Head I would say left obverse (less detailed eye and nose) and right reverse (wear on hand and boot while other high points are not affected)

Mellors & Kirk said it was the one on the left.

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6 hours ago, dicker said:

Very deceptive - I can’t tell

Nor me.  I am always impressed by people who can tell from pictures.  I posted a link to some expensive sovereigns at another auction and someone on here was able to identify that the 1917 sovereign was a fake by comparing it to a picture on Drake Sterling's website.

.

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I have been able to spot some of the fakes posted here over the last few months but only by looking at same year sovs.  This one beat me completely. 

I look for a number of things but often the year numbers just don’t look right and the detail looks flat compared to the condition of the rest of the coin. 

Thanks for posting always good to see this type of thing. 

Best

dicker

Not my circus, not my monkeys

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With modern equipment it will be possible to create fakes that are indistinguishable. As Chards said in their video on fake five sovereigns it is sometimes specific scratches or marks that are present on all fakes that help identify them. 

Any coin that commands a premium will be attractive to be copied. 

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