Another Another Perth Mint Coin

[999magnum]

I like it. 2oz coins are cool.

 

https://www.providentmetals.com/2018-australia-2-oz-silver-next-generation-koala.html

[Foolssilver]

I like it. Do you think the Europe dealers will get it same time?

[999magnum]

3 minutes ago, Foolssilver said:

I like it. Do you think the Europe dealers will get it same time?

This is probably not too true, but I'm starting to believe that if apmex is not involved then there is a chance for a little bit of fairness for everyone.

[PansPurse]

I'm just thinking of Star Trek the next generation now 

[999magnum]

4 minutes ago, PansPurse said:

I'm just thinking of Star Trek the next generation now 

Yes and soon the kangaroo next generation too. Or a kango, koala, and kook "we are family" coin 

Or was ST next generation the failure series? Not sure what you cryptic Scots talk about sometimes  

[sovereignsteve]

2 hours ago, 999magnum said:

I like it. 2oz coins are cool.

yes but this is a piedfort isn't it? no bigger than a single ounce coin in profile.

[fehk2001]

1 minute ago, sovereignsteve said:

yes but this is a piedfort isn't it? no bigger than a single ounce coin in profile.

I think it’s same as their high relief 2oz

[sovereignsteve]

2 minutes ago, fehk2001 said:

I think it’s same as their high relief 2oz

perth mint hr 2oz?

 

[fehk2001]

55 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

perth mint hr 2oz?

 

Guessing 40mm piedfort 

[999magnum]

25 minutes ago, fehk2001 said:

Guessing 40mm piedfort 

says 40.6mm on the description

[999magnum]

1 hour ago, sovereignsteve said:

yes but this is a piedfort isn't it? no bigger than a single ounce coin in profile.

Yes it is. Thick one oz coin.

[swAgger]

Doesn't do anything for me. Seems to me these are bog standard bullion, going to milk much the same way as the kangaroo bullion (the Queen's side on the Provident images seems to suggest already). If you can find one not milked, capsule will probably need to be the large diameter airtite with foam ring. Doubtful it'll squeeze into the current Egyptian round or Queen's beast one.

Strictly for the bullion buyer, imo, who won't expect real collector premium in the future. So i find myself asking why the low limited mintage, and changing design series. This suggests you may sell to the single coin collector in the future, right? For a premium too. Except he is not going to pay much premium for your stained and/or scratched ones. Any premium you could realistically ask will be well swallowed by sellers fees. These are much the same reasons i didn't get into the Queen's beast 2oz.

So, as a way of buying cheap(er) bullion that will remain bullion, with nice designs, nice weight.... then why not. But i just wouldn't be expecting much of anything else from them.

Of course, just my views. Maybe i'll be totally wrong and these won't milk. I only know they aren't for me.

[kimchi]

I agree mostly with @swAgger (don't like the foam rings myself for coins that could milk). The quality of their Roos is already poor, but is cheap as chips bullion. The Dragon Coinbars I was really excited about before receiving but the obverse is poor imo compared to the reverse, and QC was shocking on the 20+ I bought (all dinged and marked in the same places). It's bullion only.

A shame for me, to be so disappointed with one of my favourite mints for the things they do so very 'right' - Kooks, Kook Privys, perhaps the Swan (don't have any) and (hopefully) the Emu (looks good so far - surprised I like it so much).

They suddenly seem a bit 'desperate' to throw out all sorts of sub-par coins and I don't see any reason for it. If they won't stick to 'the basics' at least I will when I buy!

 

[swAgger]

27 minutes ago, kimchi said:

I agree mostly with @swAgger (don't like the foam rings myself for coins that could milk). The quality of their Roos is already poor, but is cheap as chips bullion. The Dragon Coinbars I was really excited about before receiving but the obverse is poor imo compared to the reverse, and QC was shocking on the 20+ I bought (all dinged and marked in the same places). It's bullion only.

A shame for me, to be so disappointed with one of my favourite mints for the things they do so very 'right' - Kooks, Kook Privys, perhaps the Swan (don't have any) and (hopefully) the Emu (looks good so far - surprised I like it so much).

They suddenly seem a bit 'desperate' to throw out all sorts of sub-par coins and I don't see any reason for it. If they won't stick to 'the basics' at least I will when I buy!

 

Very true. There is a very good indicator with Perth ranges - if they have capsuled them you know they'll be great. I won't go into the whole milking thing again, but they can control it when they want. And them issuing a bullion range as capsuled is them signalling that those are virtually assured not to milk. Warning bells go off for me when they issue loose tubed bullion. I threw the dice with the rectangular dragons, too, and while i don't regret having them i'll be the first to admit i wasn't too surprised when they turned out to have some issues.

As a collector, but also a buyer of semi-numi bullion coins there are some gambles i take on willingly, and some i won't. I'm willing to buy collectible bullion and take my chances on them using my own judgement. That's the fun and educational part for me. And there is quite enough of a gamble element in that alone. To add another gamble which is the condition of the coins, is to be avoided. Condition is a gamble i shouldn't have to take on as well, wondering in advance of a purchase will these be damaged or milked.

I do buy loose, tubed bullion, but only after having some knowledge of them. For instance, the mint that issue the tubed Egyptian and Privateer rounds - the rounds are in first class condition. But i know other things too which make my mind up - the Royal mint bullion are prone to milking. Will i buy some loose tubed collector bullion - no. But their capsuled Oriental britannia and landmarks of Britain i've found to be milk free so far. The Perth mint are prone to milking - but largely reserved to the loose tubed stuff, too.

There is a reason mint-capsuled collector bullion ranges have premiums attached by the mints. And it isn't simply the added cost of the capsule. (Nor is it that simply putting a coin in a capsule afterward stops the milking - that's worth saying!) It's to do with the level of attention that's been given to eliminating the causes of milking during the process, and non contact with other coins during production. In other words, the mint decide in advance what will be a "better" coin.

[Martlet]

Like the design, and i like the feel of 2oz so will be looking forward to release in Europe.  

[swAgger]

5 hours ago, Martlet said:

Like the design, and i like the feel of 2oz so will be looking forward to release in Europe.  

I know what you mean. 2oz is an ideal weight and feel.

I see Aurinum are the first i've noticed with these in stock. Approx €10 over spot. That's a wee bit on the strong side for what it is. Puts it in the ballpark of the lunar 2oz which is a superior quality coin with lower mintage. I'm sure others will list it for less, though. €6 above spot would be more in keeping, i hope.

[kimchi]

16 hours ago, swAgger said:

...

There is a reason mint-capsuled collector bullion ranges have premiums attached by the mints. And it isn't simply the added cost of the capsule. (Nor is it that simply putting a coin in a capsule afterward stops the milking - that's worth saying!) It's to do with the level of attention that's been given to eliminating the causes of milking during the process, and non contact with other coins during production. In other words, the mint decide in advance what will be a "better" coin.

Completely agree with everything you say. I'd add just one thing - the far superior quality of capsuled Perth and some Royal Mint (e.g. Orientals and anniversarys) silver to their loose bullion doesn't translate to all other mints alas, as I've found to my cost recently with e.g. Bavarian Mint stuff. Another premium bullion coin in a capsule came both hazy (probable milking) on the frosting and terrible production.

I'm going to be very, very selective on which mints' premium capsuled coins I buy in the future or otherwise if something really grabs me just one or two and expect it to turn up as bullion.

[swAgger]

3 hours ago, kimchi said:

Completely agree with everything you say. I'd add just one thing - the far superior quality of capsuled Perth and some Royal Mint (e.g. Orientals and anniversarys) silver to their loose bullion doesn't translate to all other mints alas, as I've found to my cost recently with e.g. Bavarian Mint stuff. Another premium bullion coin in a capsule came both hazy (probable milking) on the frosting and terrible production.

I'm going to be very, very selective on which mints' premium capsuled coins I buy in the future or otherwise if something really grabs me just one or two and expect it to turn up as bullion.

Yes, you're right, the methods and patterns of some mints don't translate the same into other mints. Due diligence needed before assuming what you will receive will be problem free. I've built up my own list through time of go-to mints and what type of products i can predict to be to what standard, with reasonable confidence. Then there are some that no matter what they produce (bullion/premium bullion/proof) you can't rely on it. All part of the learning curve. An expensive learning curve!

 

3 hours ago, kimchi said:

 as I've found to my cost recently with e.g. Bavarian Mint stuff. Another premium bullion coin in a capsule came both hazy (probable milking) on the frosting and terrible production.

 

Hmm. Do tell more. My first thought is of course the Somalia Elephants? Can't be the capsuled "15" anniversary..... an older elephant perhaps??

[kimchi]

13 minutes ago, swAgger said:

Can't be the capsuled "15" anniversary..... an older elephant perhaps??

Interesting! Why can't it be the anniversary Elephant?

Yes indeed it can be a very costly and time-consuming learning curve with not only each mint and issue but also from certain dealers! Before I found this place I didn't know about VAT differences from Europe and I bought Brits from a UK company (not BullionByPost although I did get some from them) who delivered the coins in capsules. Out of all my Brits these ones have not spotted! It's not down to simply being in capsules imo - I've heard it speculated on here that the worst batches are sent to the cheaper European resellers. I don't have the experience to rule that out, but there's got to be more to it (their handling/storage etc). I have only once ever seen a spotted Kook going back to the start of the series and it was from Goldsilver.be (a 2016 or 2017 I believe 10oz).

 

[swAgger]

11 minutes ago, kimchi said:

Interesting! Why can't it be the anniversary Elephant?

Really? No. It is this one? Oh no.... . That does surprise me, tbh, just going by what i saw. I went through mine before squirreling them away and couldn't find fault. No marks, dings, dongs, milk or scratches. Elephants are a risk at the best of times, but i was pleased with the anniversary.

[kimchi]

46 minutes ago, swAgger said:

Really? No. It is this one? Oh no.... . That does surprise me, tbh, just going by what i saw. I went through mine before squirreling them away and couldn't find fault. No marks, dings, dongs, milk or scratches. Elephants are a risk at the best of times, but i was pleased with the anniversary.

I didn't check mine too carefully before storage to be honest, wish I had now, but very glad to hear yours all seemed good  It's interesting though that you'd thought (or rather think) that the Bavarian Mint would do better on the anniversarys - I'd love to know why because I have no experience with them apart from the spotting regular elephants (a crying shame for me as they are lovely coins). Of course I had very much hoped and expected (love the Eles, such a shame they spot). For yourself, was that expectation from previous experience from their capsuled coins?

I saw what I thought was a milk spot on BYB's coin on his In Focus Friday video about the anniversary, also what could have been a smear from his handling, and a speck of dust or perhaps another tiny spot. We had a difference of opinion, as he was sure there was nothing on there that wasn't due to himself, but it struck me immediately, and while it's hard to tell from video, other folks I asked for an opinion from were concerned enough with what they saw.

The other coin is the St Helena, perhaps somewhat hidden due to the frosting. I did ask, but don't think anyone ever answered, which mint that was from. Niue have their own version and St Helena doesn't seem to have a PM mint, so until corrected I assume Niue did those too. My only experience with them is the Star Wars coins and Steamboat Willie (all fine, if not very well produced imho) and a tube of Owls (all shocking).

The Owls were from Goldsilver along with a tube of Perth Roos (also shocking upon delivery) but the other loose ones were from the European Mint. It's only a small sample for me there on all these, but patterns do start to seem to emerge, especially from a certain cheap company...

I was taking pics of the Helena with my very poor camera and didn't get a good shot. I was going to try again but the folk I ran this one past said they'd seen enough. What do you think? Look at the pitted frosting on the oriental border - shocking. Then have a look around the figure. Poor minting again or milking? I know which I think it is, and why, but it'd be interesting to have another gut reaction (I bought two of these btw, but only realised after taking some pics that I had actually used the far better of the two!):

 

 

[swAgger]

You didn't look at your anniversary elephant too carefully before storage? So that isn't the one you meant after all when you said "e.g. Bavarian Mint stuff. Another premium bullion coin in a capsule came both hazy (probable milking) on the frosting and terrible production."? Or you saw it had hazing and just quickly put it away? I'm still taken aback the anniversary one would be hazed badly.

Regardless, i only thought it couldn't be the anniversary elephant in that condition because your description wasn't what i was seeing. I was so surprised not to find anything on mine that i believed maybe they had gone to extra effort for this special issue. For a change. It's certainly not that i have any faith in the elephants, occasional mint capsuled ones or not. Because other than the 1oz i wouldn't ever again touch any of their other products with a very long stick. That includes their proofs which can eventually milk also. And i would only buy the regular 1oz bullion because the premium starts off quite cheap and are widely collected. It's a lottery every time whether you get milked ones or not. Or a better way of putting it is the degrees of milking you will have. From a few small dots right up to great vistas of milk. Sorry if i led you to think i was saying that if any certain coins of theirs are issued capsuled, it indicates any form of quality (like we were saying about Perth).

But here's the thing to always bear in mind with the 1oz bullion Somalia series. Milk spots are not the end of the world. It's fairly unique for the Somalia's in that, after all these years, collectors accept that they milk spot. It doesn't bother them to the degree it does on other series. Well.... bothers of course, but there is feck all to be done about it. Except not collect. But they're so dam nice! Milk spotted elephants are the default expectation. Totally clear is possible and may gain extra premium. Where other series coins milk spot, it wipes out practically all premium. Elephants, not so. They still retain most of their relative premium (based on the year) even spotted. But large areas whited - have to be the exception, yes.

I had a look at BYB's video of the anniversary. I thought there was a milk spot down by the "T" and was hoping he would tilt from a different angle. It must not be though if he said it wasn't.

Yes, i had the same tiny dots on, i think two, of the satin frosted St Helena's. Not impressed either, what with a €9++ premium (i think they were). But i only got a few. I haven't heard either, who minted them. My first reaction is that the dots in the frosted finish are where particles may have got between the die and the blank. Vapour blasting the coin surfaces after minting like the US mint do with the ATB's (instead of laser frosting the die), might have been a better option to get the all over perfect frosting.

Niue can issue licenses to various mints who approach them, as far as i know. New Zealand Mint is their biggest benefactor and user (Star Wars, Owl), but i'm not certain they have the sole rights to use the Niue name. Someone who has bought one of the Niue trade dollar proofs might be able to say if the mint is named on the coa. There is a good chance the same mint did both St Helena and Niue on behalf of the "East India Company" name holder.

Finally, two apologies. One for the long winded post. Second to the OP for the offroad excursion from the original topic!

 

[999magnum]

1 hour ago, swAgger said:

 

Finally, two apologies. One for the long winded post. Second to the OP for the offroad excursion from the original topic!

 

No worries. I always learn from you my friend!

[swAgger]

2 hours ago, 999magnum said:

No worries. I always learn from you my friend!

Now there's something i never hear in daily life. Usually the volume on the tv gets turned up    

[fehk2001]

1 minute ago, swAgger said:

Now there's something i never hear in daily life. Usually the volume on the tv gets turned up    

I always learn from you too