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1/4 oz Gold Queens Beast Bull MS70 - On Ebay


Pampfan

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Thank you!  Although on the Paradise mint website it says they actually have 46 left at the moment (and $10 cheaper):

http://www.paradisemint.com/2018-Great-Britain-14oz-Gold-Queen-Black-Bull-of-Clarence-Coin-NGC-MS70-Early-Releases-Flag-Label_p_6053.html

It's interesting as the bull seems to be grading very well as bullion, but not well as a proof. For example the NGC MS70 population of 2oz silver is already the highest the of all the designs at 171, and will certainly increase as it's early. The 1/4oz gold MS70 is also already the highest of the series at 131, vs. a current population of 3 for the PF70. 

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5 hours ago, Lr103 said:

Thank you!  Although on the Paradise mint website it says they actually have 46 left at the moment (and $10 cheaper):

http://www.paradisemint.com/2018-Great-Britain-14oz-Gold-Queen-Black-Bull-of-Clarence-Coin-NGC-MS70-Early-Releases-Flag-Label_p_6053.html

It's interesting as the bull seems to be grading very well as bullion, but not well as a proof. For example the NGC MS70 population of 2oz silver is already the highest the of all the designs at 171, and will certainly increase as it's early. The 1/4oz gold MS70 is also already the highest of the series at 131, vs. a current population of 3 for the PF70. 

Well technically the gold PF did better percentage wise. PF70 rate is 75% while MS70 is only 62%

Omne aurum quod rex valūtās

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@Lr103

the population reports really are a function of how many people have graded the coin.  You will find as with all the other releases in the series so far that when the coin first comes out - a huge grading occurs - so the population looks like it is grading well - but you really do not know how many coins were sent in and what minimum grades were requested by the big player submitters. 

I don’t think the pop reports will be going that much higher - unless some more big house places decide to grade the coins. We will see.

 

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2 hours ago, Pampfan said:

@Lr103

the population reports really are a function of how many people have graded the coin.  You will find as with all the other releases in the series so far that when the coin first comes out - a huge grading occurs - so the population looks like it is grading well - but you really do not know how many coins were sent in and what minimum grades were requested by the big player submitters. 

I don’t think the pop reports will be going that much higher - unless some more big house places decide to grade the coins. We will see.

 

We'll see...but with a sample size already over 1,600 for the silver (with none lower than MS69) and over 10% getting MS70 I would say the quality is higher for this particular run of bullion coins.  Especially versus the first 2 designs.

Although as a disclaimer I did not know it was an option to request a minimum grade, so if that is indeed possible then of course none of the MS70 percentages are material as the true submission population size is unknown. 

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20 hours ago, Goldmick said:

I must say my bull 1/4 gold bullion coin is the best as in how clean and crisp it looks I'm sure really sure it will get ms70 I think you could be right 

That’s the beauty of coin collecting - take a chance it might pay off -to others - they buy the certainty.  I have done both  and got good and bad results. My gut is always buy the 70. In the end - you probably end up paying the same if you grade yourself and then you may not get one.

 

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That’s the beauty of coin collecting - take a chance it might pay off -to others - they buy the certainty.  I have done both  and got good and bad results. My gut is always buy the 70. In the end - you probably end up paying the same if you grade yourself and then you may not get one.
 
I can tell you first hand it's cheaper to buy an MS70 or PF70... By the time you pay for insured shipping to NGC, pay the grading fees, label fees and pay for super slow "Registered mail" which is also expensive you need to grade 15 coins to make it worth your time/money. And none of these are guaranteed an MS70. And the fact that I can't use the "minimum grade" feature as I'm not a dealer makes everything a gamble...
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I can tell you first hand it's cheaper to buy an MS70 or PF70... By the time you pay for insured shipping to NGC, pay the grading fees, label fees and pay for super slow "Registered mail" which is also expensive you need to grade 15 coins to make it worth your time/money. And none of these are guaranteed an MS70. And the fact that I can't use the "minimum grade" feature as I'm not a dealer makes everything a gamble...


I think that’s because you don’t have a special arrangement like I do where every single coin is a 70.
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I have tried both methods, buying raw and getting graded and buying certainties. 

Lion bought raw graded = ms70

Griffin raw = waiting to send off for grading

Red Dragon raw graded = ms69

Unicorn certainty already graded = ms70

Unicorn raw = ms69 and sold.

Bull certainty already graded = ms70

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Is it just me (and I am a grading 'sceptic') who wouldn't buy one of those special lables, because it means it's from a big company (who just happen to be down the road from NGC!) and so I'm not as confident in the grade as I would be with labels available to everyone?

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22 minutes ago, kimchi said:

Is it just me (and I am a grading 'sceptic') who wouldn't buy one of those special lables, because it means it's from a big company (who just happen to be down the road from NGC!) and so I'm not as confident in the grade as I would be with labels available to everyone?

I think that NGC is a pretty reputable company - so if they give the coin a 70 grade - most likely it deserved a 70. Plus - the big companies probably send in a case of coins(500 or more at a time) for pre- grading and then only ask for 69or 70 grades to get holders, and the special label allows the companies to ask for more money when they sell them. 

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24 minutes ago, Pampfan said:

I think that NGC is a pretty reputable company - so if they give the coin a 70 grade - most likely it deserved a 70. Plus - the big companies probably send in a case of coins(500 or more at a time) for pre- grading and then only ask for 69or 70 grades to get holders, and the special label allows the companies to ask for more money when they sell them. 

I do see the merits of that argument and agree NGC is reputable. They are however on the same street, and staff must know each other very well professionally if not socially as well. Even subconsciously that would have an effect of some sort, unless the graders are completely 'blind' on where the coins come from (has that ever be confirmed)? Even so, I would think they would often suspect due to timing and size of some submissions.

Perhaps I'm towards the outliers of British scepticism on this, but it's a point that's come up from others as well before. I've also seen the feeling from some that PCGS is harder than NGC to achieve a 70.

Really all I can say with certainty is that I would not be 100% confident buying one of these (rightly or wrongly). I wouldn't want it in a different label to the rest of my collection, or when coming to sell find it harder due to the same attitude from some buyers as me (again however wrong we may be) and I wouldn't be 100% confident in re-slabbing if the grading is blind to the origin.

Perhaps the grading process is still too new to some of us (old farts?) over here in the UK (?) When very experienced graders tell me sending to NCS first would probably give me a slightly better chance at a 70 on almost brand new proof coins from good mints it doesn't fuel my confidence, but perhaps that is their mistake that I am picking up on, although one would expect their long grading history to have given them some insight (?).

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I would have no doubts on a 70 submitted by a forum member or Numistacker but these bulk submissions (and even some early and first releases) seem to get away with more. I bought a forum submitted 1/4 oz MS70 Lion and a 1/4 oz PF70 dragon, both deserved the grade. Looking at the pictures of bulk submitted coins on eBay, e.g. 1oz silver Unicorns, I doubt that with the missing frosting in chains and mouth we would get a 70. 

In short: I would buy a forum submitted 70 blindly but I would carefully check a bulk submitted 70.

Having said that, the "no J.C" variant somehow escaped the graders attention but I suppose they only strike down post production damage. 

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10 minutes ago, ShaolinStacker said:

-NGC gives preferential grades to large dealers

-There are only 8 MS70 Griffins(2 of which were graded through Numi.

 

Pick one

 

I graded 3 griffins as well and got a 70- on my own - Also, the griffin was the only coin not mass graded by any company- thus the low pop for ms70 examples of the coin. 

i have to disagree with the preferential grades to large dealers.  They just grade more and select what grades they want slabbed. If I was them, I would do the same thing.

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Interesting that the two members from the US who have posted so far perhaps seem to have a little more faith in the bulk gradings than us sceptical Brits (again only so far - too small a selection to make any conclusions from, hope for many more posts on this!). 

I must also say to be fair I have only graded once so far myself (though it was through a 'preferred partner' as such in Heritage Auctions London) and I got 4 out of 4 PF70s. It was on the 2018 Sovs where anything less than a 70 is a great exception, but nevertheless I was very impressed (and happy ofc!) :)

1 hour ago, ShaolinStacker said:

-NGC gives preferential grades to large dealers

-There are only 8 MS70 Griffins(2 of which were graded through Numi.

 

Pick one

 

It's not a binary choice. The third option (there are probably more) is (I think as many of us know) that production and/or handling on the first two beasts was so poor that most examples would have got far worse than 69, and even the absolute cherry picked examples mostly failed to get a 70. A grading company would not risk losing it's reputation on a coin issue or two that was obviously absolutely sub-par across the board. The grey area on coins that have been properly and decently minted, handled, and sent out is the point of the debate here I think.

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-NGC gives preferential grades to large dealers
-There are only 8 MS70 Griffins(2 of which were graded through Numi.
 
Pick one
 


I think 3 through me.

The truth is that there is no real preference given to large dealers however there is a completely different tier only available to dealers that allows coins to be examined to decide whether or not they make the grade prior to actual grading.

If a dealer has achieved 20 MS 70 coins he may have submitted 100 coins for consideration.
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36 minutes ago, Numistacker said:

 


I think 3 through me.

The truth is that there is no real preference given to large dealers however there is a completely different tier only available to dealers that allows coins to be examined to decide whether or not they make the grade prior to actual grading.

If a dealer has achieved 20 MS 70 coins he may have submitted 100 coins for consideration.

 

Yes typically you'll see them either get placed in a holder that says Gem Uncirculated or they'll get sold in a tube with an NGC seal from places like MCM and Apmex. The premium they try to get for these tubes is hilarious but Im sure they've fooled many a sucker.

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$70 more for the MS70 over MS69.  Is that worth it?  Maybe, just wondering what everyone thinks.  Down the road will I be able to flip this for $70 more than the MS69? (because personally I don't think there's any difference in most cases)

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