Kinesis Gold and Silver currency

[sixgun]

1 hour ago, Bumble said:

Price volatility will remain, simply because gold itself is volatile in price. Or if you prefer to think of it the other way round, fiat currencies are volatile against gold. Either way, if you are a merchant and want to accept K-coins as payment, you may have to buy some currency hedging to protect your revenue. Current Litecoin transaction fees average 14 cents USD per transaction, and do not scale up with the amount transacted, so they are pretty cheap. If Kinesis offers yield to its stockholders, minters and depositors based on transaction charges, I don't see how they will be able to keep the fees that cheap.

The other interesting facet of a new currency is that the Russians and Chinese might use it, either overtly or covertly. After the Russian 'invasion' of Ukraine, the USA imposed sanctions on Russia in the form of denying them access to the SWIFT system of international payments. An international crypto currency fully backed by gold might be just the thing that wealthy Russians and Chinese choose to use instead.

China wants out of the USD. She does not want to be dependent on routing business through Swift and New York. This is one of the reasons for the Petro-Yuan. Russia has had so many sanctions she has had to get along outside the USD system. It did not kill her, it made her stronger. The Belt and Road nations will be out of the dying USD fiat system. The world is moving on very fast. He who has the gold makes the rules - Russia and China have the gold. i suspect combined close on 70 000 tonnes of gold.

An asset backed digital currency can be divided down into very small units. The units are still backed by metal. You can buy a house with KC or a pack of chewing gum. It will be spendable on Kinesis Visa and Mastercard.

[STONE]

@sixgun  I do appreciate your posts, you seem well informed and are very logical in your thinking. There is one thing I am curious about. It seems like the underlying theme of Kinesis is to break the strangled hold of price discovery on PM's. But since it is highly manipulated I am not sure that will ever be achieved. Futures contracts are almost always settled in cash since those quantity's of gold and silver actually do not exist. Supply and demand is no longer the driving factor for price and has not been for some time. They can produce contracts in multitudes and settle out for cash which in turn they also have an endless supply because all they have to do is turn on the printing presses. When the product is fraud and its paid for in fraud no amount of supply stored by an honest system can break what is not affected by a legitimate supply of gold or silver. The level of dishonesty is mind boggling since it is actually the banks who are running most of the governments. They in turn are the law makers, they will just keep moving the goal post so they are the only ones who profit from their misdeeds.  I think its important for people to understand that when they think of central banks and government they need to realize they are one and the same.

Edited May 9, 2018 by STONE

[KDave]

Last supply/demand figures I saw, the central banks are buying a wedge of gold taking nearly 10% of supply. Looks to me like they are supporting the price rather than manipulating it lower. 

Interesting they are buyers of gold while talking up interest rates though. Not sure what to think about that, its bullish and bearish all at once 

[STONE]

They settle the contracts in cash, then take the profits and buy physical. Wash, rinse and repeat. At roughly 700 million ounces of physical JPM can swing the market in any direction they want to. The paper market is 250 times the actual supply and there is nothing to stop it from increasing since it is totally detached from reality... Its been manipulated so long its hard to know what the REAL price is. But I am sure its much more than the current $16 handle just based on what's mined and above ground supply. We need to get away from the banks. Be your own bank!!

Edited May 9, 2018 by STONE

[sixgun]

@STONE yes one of the objectives, if not the main goal of those involved in Kinesis is to disrupt the paper market and allow true price discovery.

From my calculations the minting process at Kinesis is capable of drawing in 100's and quite quickly 1000's of tonnes of gold. It is capable of drawing in amounts of silver which will dwarf the amount JPM holds in silver. JPM does not sell a single ounce of physical.

Maguire said that when there was the proposed tie up of the ABX and BullionCoin last year he had two interested investors on his books and attempted to buy 250 tonnes of gold for them. This trade was refused. A buy like that would have rocked the market, so it was refused. He says they have devised a different technique this time round. i am not sure if this is public, so i won't say but he views this method as being unstoppable. i see the only way to stop it would be to halt all physical trading. Either way the price of gold would end up going a long way north.

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by sixgun

[sixgun]

1 hour ago, STONE said:

Futures contracts are almost always settled in cash since those quantity's of gold and silver actually do not exist.

Contracts are settled in cash b/c most of the participants are not interested in buying physical. This year there has been a change in this position. More and more longs are standing for delivery. As you say the COMEX does not have the metal. These undeliverable contracts are getting booted over into the London (and Hong Kong) OTC (over the counter) market for settlement. This is the EFP trade - (exchange for physical). We do not know what the terms of these settlements are as this market is contract by contract and is not public. EFP are supposed to be an emergency measure in the unusual situation where the contracts cannot be delivered on - this emergency is now every week and growing in the precious metals. The COMEX has small print where physical delivery can be refused and there is a cash settlement. This is not classed as a default but we all know this is a default. The EFP's are a method of defaulting and sweeping it under the carpet. That we have reached this point is known to those outside the US-centric paper market and it is known the game is approaching a close.

 

1 hour ago, STONE said:

Supply and demand is no longer the driving factor for price and has not been for some time.

Supply and demand is still the driving force except it is the supply and demand for futures contracts. Last year i tried to calculate the supply - demand price for metal. It turned out to be impossible b/c the price is not set in the physical market. The minute-by-minute price is the futures paper price. This can only carry on for as long as there is physical at something like the paper price. i expect the sellers in the EFP are having to shoulder substantial losses b/c they cannot get the physical at the paper price. We can assume they are being subsidised.

When Kinesis kicks off and assuming the currency aftermarket is strong, the demand for physical will be 100 tonnes per month. This will break the paper market and force a reset. If i were a Western central banker i would be amassing as much physical for myself as i could - before i went into hiding. Certainly central banks are calling in their gold. i see a reset this year and at the latest next.

Edited May 9, 2018 by sixgun

[STONE]

Interesting. I agree a large initial purchase for backing will be necessary. I wonder if China and Russia would be involved? They have been buying physical hand over fist for a while now. Its going to take a few really big players to bring down the current manipulation.

Edited May 9, 2018 by STONE

[sixgun]

11 minutes ago, STONE said:

Interesting. I agree a large initial purchase for backing will be necessary. I wonder if China and Russia would be involved? They have been buying physical hand over fist for a while now. Its going to take a few big players to bring down the current manipulation.

Maguire mentioned a central bank is supportive of Kinesis, i don't think this was publicly. When a question was asked on one of the video interviews about the risk of the metal being confiscated both Maguire and Coughlin said Kinesis has powerful friends. At a guess this could be referring to the central banking friend. Considering the moves of Russia and China to undermine the USD, it would not surprise me if it were one of that duo.

Edited May 9, 2018 by sixgun

[STONE]

Agreed. Something big is coming down the pipeline when the big players amass large amounts of gold and silver. I have heard that some other private big players are moving out of stocks and into PM's very quietly ahead of the coming storm. The USD is a joke, its all debt based. I am grateful I can still trade worthless FRN's for real money, gold and silver!

Edited May 9, 2018 by STONE

[sixgun]

46 minutes ago, STONE said:

Agreed. Something big is coming down the pipeline when the big players amass large amounts of gold and silver. I have heard that some other private big players are moving out of stocks and into PM's very quietly ahead of the coming storm. The USD is a joke, its all debt based. I am grateful I can still trade worthless FRN's for real money, gold and silver!

JPM built up its silver stack all the time it was shorting on the paper market. The stack is supposedly mainly ASE's which is odd. They deny the silver is theirs.

Goldmans has been building a physical gold position for some time. When the vampire squid is stacking gold you know something is coming down the pike.

[Martlet]

I've been following the Kinesis telegram for some time and there appears to be an elephant in the room, concerning the dual token nature of the offering.  Its been mentioned in terms of how to handle as a user and a bit waved away.  Bigger question from a technical point of view is how they will bridge between KVT ERC20 tokens and KCx currency tokens on Stellar, so that the yield from one system goes to the other securely.  Its not even mentioned in their white paper so will be interesting to see how they'll do it given the time line. 

[matrawr]

2 hours ago, sixgun said:

JPM built up its silver stack all the time it was shorting on the paper market. The stack is supposedly mainly ASE's which is odd. They deny the silver is theirs.

Goldmans has been building a physical gold position for some time. When the vampire squid is stacking gold you know something is coming down the pike.

With banksters they are where there's money to be made especially with JPM if they say do something do the opposite! As the case with BTC they rubbished it before buying it they've probably offloaded it by now if you're looking at videos about them acquiring large amounts of silver it's either outdated or just plain rubbish. I'm not saying it's impossible but more oftern than not the banks will beat us at the money game.

[sixgun]

3 minutes ago, matrawr said:

 if you're looking at videos about them acquiring large amounts of silver it's either outdated or just plain rubbish. I'm not saying it's impossible but more often than not the banks will beat us at the money game.

The JPM silver stack info is not from videos -  they do hold the silver and deny they have any. They are an agent bank for the Fed - so it could belong to the US Treasury, hence it is ASE's.

[matrawr]

28 minutes ago, sixgun said:

The JPM silver stack info is not from videos -  they do hold the silver and deny they have any. They are an agent bank for the Fed - so it could belong to the US Treasury, hence it is ASE's.

I do find it hard to believe that a government would entrust an external force with something that valuable unless it's a place where the government has eyes on it. Any ASE's? Surely it would make more sense for them to hold it in delivery bars?

[sixgun]

1 minute ago, matrawr said:

ASE's? Surely it would make more sense for them to hold it in delivery bars?

Maguire has said (not publicly) JPM and another bank have cornered the physical silver market. From memory the other bank might have been HSBC but i am not sure about that. i have heard him repeat the two banks cornering the market many times. JPM deny they have this silver (on their account) but i would not trust them to tell the truth about anything. There is the story the JPM silver was bought as ASE's.  If JPM has bought silver through the US Mint there is nothing to say it is still held as ASE's - it could have been melted down into bars. JPM with HSBC has the majority of the COMEX silver and JPM is the custodian of the SLV. With so many tentacles out there amassing a stockpile whilst talking price down and going short in the paper market with the regulator in their pocket would a breeze.

[Mildred]

Nice to see this thread revived! 

Just an incidental remark: within the Kinesis community there is regularly reference to the current PM market manipulation.
As I see it, Kinesis will be a success if/because it'll offer to users and investors security, stability and profit.
Security, users and investors will own precious metals instead of a currency whose value depends on people's  confidence in government and central banks. In other words (in J.P. Morgans words), they will own money instead of credit.
Stability, the purchasing power of this new currency depending on that of precious metals, not on the behavior of govs and CB. Think about export-import enterprises, no more need of hedging against currency exchange rates changes.
Profit = yield. Yield in connection with an investment in PM. An absolute novelty in financial history. Kinesis genious

Probably the main goal of Kinesis management is indeed to disrupt manipulated markets and allow true price discovery, but associating Kinesis too much with this goal makes it looks like some conspirationists' endeavour, which only starry-eyed idealists should be interested in.
Those financial institutions, pension and hedge fonds etc. who will invest in Kinesis, they won't do it out of conscience or love for free markets

 

[Mildred]

End of manipulation, market disruptions...
Maguire went to the CFTC in NY as a whistle-blower.
At the end of his deposition about the manipulation of the silver market and his demand of end it, the reaction of other side was Yes but what about the economic consequences. Maguire understood they were going to do nothing about it. Privates had to end it by themselves. Maybe, that was the beginning of Kinesis.

Let's play the devil's advocate.
There is this line, Be careful for what you wish because it could take place. Something like that.
Reset. Market disruptions. Only PM markets? Maybe currency markets too. Currencies disruptions? Hyperinflation?
Is it better to be an above water bum within a rich neighborhood or a rich within a neighborhood of paupers?
Some people know guns, defence, security etc. I don't. I would sink gloryless within two weeks

What I'm just saying is I'm not sure that PM investors will be better off after the upcoming reset, at least not all

[Oldun]

One decent emp and tata the internet and electricity.

[PansPurse]

10 minutes ago, Oldun said:

One decent emp and tata the internet and electricity.

Yes, except EMPs are actually very hard to make and pretty short range.

Short of a major solar flare or a nuclear explosion, in which case I'll likely have other things to worry about

[Oldun]

NNEMP

https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/NNEMP

[PansPurse]

17 minutes ago, Oldun said:

NNEMP

https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/NNEMP

Yes, but they're very hard to make, not particularly powerful and have very limited range

[Oldun]

Hard to make never bothered national armies before and believe me, they have all have a ton of them plus more.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Oldun

[PansPurse]

9 minutes ago, Oldun said:

Hard to make never bothered national armies before and believe me, they have all have a ton of them plus more.

What are you basing this on?

[Oldun]

https://www.army-technology.com/features/featurethe-emp-threat-is-enough-being-done-4605258/

[sixgun]

2 hours ago, Mildred said:

End of manipulation, market disruptions...
Maguire went to the CFTC in NY as a whistle-blower.
At the end of his deposition about the manipulation of the silver market and his demand of end it, the reaction of other side was Yes but what about the economic consequences. Maguire understood they were going to do nothing about it. Privates had to end it by themselves. Maybe, that was the beginning of Kinesis.

Let's play the devil's advocate.
There is this line, Be careful for what you wish because it could take place. Something like that.
Reset. Market disruptions. Only PM markets? Maybe currency markets too. Currencies disruptions? Hyperinflation?
Is it better to be an above water bum within a rich neighborhood or a rich within a neighborhood of paupers?
Some people know guns, defence, security etc. I don't. I would sink gloryless within two weeks

What I'm just saying is I'm not sure that PM investors will be better off after the upcoming reset, at least not all

You are correct in your account of Andrew Maguire. He presented his evidence, it was compelling, we should say irrefutable. He predicted manipulation, he told them it would happen and low and behold it did. Even a causal glance at the charts shows it. i have heard Maguire say that as he left with his lawyers he decided he would not give up, he would end the manipulation.

So there is manipulation, all sides admit it. As a long term stacker one could rightly say a low price is good. You can stack more. You look ahead in the expectation of a repricing of precious metals but not this month please, i have my eye on more gold and silver.

Personally i am very keen on Kinesis. If it works it will make a lot of money for my family. There will be multi generational financially security for us. A reset in price is not needed for Kinesis to work but as it works it will be a significant push towards the reset.

Eddie George (the then BoE governor) commented that it was looking into the abyss when a price reset looked possible. That the price of gold had to be controlled whatever the cost. "... what about the economic consequences?...."

Whether Jefferson said it or not it is true:

“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.”

The usual suspects were heavily short gold and would have gone under had gold continued to climb in price. It was more of the too big to fail. Goldman Sachs was the main culprit. Half the UK's gold was sold at fire sale prices to bail out criminal banks. We had the same nonsense in 2008. $trillions gifted to the banks. They should have been let them go. They say these trading houses cannot be allowed to collapse, the fallout would be too much. They are parasites. Fiat currency and the whole present day banking system is designed to steal from the people. It is like heroin. Withdraw and there will be cold turkey. So we are supposed to keep jacking up, think of the poor old pushers? - think of the economic consequences. There are always consequences.

The fiat currency system is about done with. There will have to be a reset in price. Kinesis will not cause it to happen on its own. The dollar is dying. i hear almost on a daily basis about something or other where the dollar is being replaced by gold, the RMB or Rouble. The RMB and Rouble will be gold backed. They are not stacking gold bars to the ceiling for nothing.

You have been warned. There will be a credit crisis. Credit will freeze. The system will need to restart. Make sure you are in a good place or at least a better place.

Edited May 10, 2018 by sixgun