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Kinesis Gold and Silver currency


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1 hour ago, Oldun said:

The moment you go to cash in or out of cryptos, you are open and have to produce paperwork/proof....that is for sure.

You don't have to do anything - only slaves have to do things. If the entity enacting the transaction is under UK jurisdiction perhaps but if it isn't...... :P

You are free to arrange your business in ways that avoid pilfering by so called authorities. There is nothing to stop a person injecting KVT's into an offshore company in a jurisdiction that does not tax income gained outside that jurisdiction.

Edited by sixgun

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

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7 hours ago, sixgun said:

Well the Kinesis company is registered in the Isle of Man so profit made outside the IoM is tax free.  So the profits held within the company are tax free. i am not sure how HMRC views cryptos. 

The official HMRC line on crypto is that its taxed the same as any other assets.  So capital gains tax rules apply on profits made from holding cryptos, which is nice and simple.  There is a complication that the tax is calculated when you change from one asset to another, so if one sells Bitcoin for Ethereum that counts as a taxable event, not only trading Bitcoin to £.  HMRC doesn't care where the tax event occurred, so if its on an exchange in UK, Europe, US, Singapore, tax is the due if you are resident in the UK. 

Upshot of this is trades through a Isle of Man exchange are going to attract CGT if you are in the UK.  The method to avoid tax is for the assets to be owned through an offshore shell company, then tax is applied under that jurisdiction and you only pay tax to HMRC when bringing profit back onshore. 

(not professional tax advice of course, just view from research on the subject for months.)

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9 minutes ago, Martlet said:

The official HMRC line on crypto is that its taxed the same as any other assets.  So capital gains tax rules apply on profits made from holding cryptos, which is nice and simple.  There is a complication that the tax is calculated when you change from one asset to another, so if one sells Bitcoin for Ethereum that counts as a taxable event, not only trading Bitcoin to £.  HMRC doesn't care where the tax event occurred, so if its on an exchange in UK, Europe, US, Singapore, tax is the due if you are resident in the UK. 

Upshot of this is trades through a Isle of Man exchange are going to attract CGT if you are in the UK.  The method to avoid tax is for the assets to be owned through an offshore shell company, then tax is applied under that jurisdiction and you only pay tax to HMRC when bringing profit back onshore. 

(not professional tax advice of course, just view from research on the subject for months.)

Kinesis is an Isle of Man corporation. Profits made outside the IoM are tax free. The advantage for an investor in KVT's like me is that when profits are distributed there is more for investors.

A person holding KVT's could setup a corporation in a country which does not tax income coming from outside that country. They could make the KVT's an asset of the corporation. The KVT's no longer belong to them so the yield is then tax free.

Now the issue is getting the cash out of the corporation. If you are tax resident in the UK, then HMRC will want a cut of your dividends from the corporation. There are potential avenues to get use of capital, Emmerdale cast had their Jersey corporations make them loans but the easiest way is not to be tax resident in the UK. If you were tax resident in a country where income from outside that country is tax free, then you can pull off the cash out and keep it all. You can come visit the UK but make sure you do not fall foul of the tax resident rules. Someone looking to create a pension pot could do this and then leave the UK and become tax resident elsewhere where they keep all this treasure.

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

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For me, No. 1 is the kicker with No 3 a close second.....zero anonymity that could come back to bite you hard if/when the law gets changed in the future and retro actively appled. Good luck to everyone but I am not touching it with a bargepole thinking I am smarter than a government who can change the rules at whim.

 

This means that while digital currency exchange businesses will not require a licence to operate from the Isle of Man, they will need to register with the ‘FSC’ as a ‘Designated Business’ (for anti-money laundering purposes) under the proposed Designated Business (Registration and Oversight) law.
 
Other Isle of Man businesses will be subject to the same regime; including, estate agents, accountants and lawyers. You can find a copy of the consultation document and the draft legislation here.
 
Registration with the FSC will be a prerequisite requirement for businesses wishing to operate as crypto-currency exchanges in the Isle of Man and operating without such a registration will be illegal.
 
One way or another – either by an industry code of practice or by guidelines issued by the FSC – minimum standards of anti-money laundering practice will be expected and required by such businesses so that they comply with the Proceeds of Crime Act 2008 and presumably the Terrorism Finance Act 2009 (although this isn’t mentioned). For more information about Isle of Man Anti Money Laundering laws see here
 
Based on existing Anti-Money Laundering law it seems certain that crypto-currency businesses will require appropriate systems and procedures to be put in place to guard against such crimes; specifically:-
 
(1) Identification documents: Certified identification documents will need to be obtained from clients – certainly for transactions above a certain threshold value.
(2) Training: Staff will require regular anti-money laundering training so they are equipped to recognise hallmarks of suspicious activity and understand the steps required of them if they form a suspicion of money laundering.
(3) Source of funds / source of wealth information will be required from clients – again most likely for clients engaged in transactions above a certain threshold value.
(4) Formal Procedures adopted: Businesses will need to adopt and implement formal compliance and anti-money laundering procedures and appoint experienced Money Laundering Reporting and Compliance officers to oversee operations.
 
Once registration is granted the FSC will be responsible for monitoring the business’s compliance with the law

https://www.middletonkatz.com/the-wonderful-truth-about-the-isle-of-mans-burgeoning-bitcoin-business/

Edited by Oldun
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2 hours ago, sixgun said:

Kinesis is an Isle of Man corporation. Profits made outside the IoM are tax free. The advantage for an investor in KVT's like me is that when profits are distributed there is more for investors.

There may well be a larger dividend for the Kinesis corporation to pass on to token holders.  I was noting that the investors (typical, without offshore arrangements) wont have direct tax benefits from the company being based offshore.  Any transaction through the Kinesis systems would be considered a tax event and liable for tax for UK residents.  Being based in Isle of Man is tax efficient for the corporation, not for the clients/customers. 

 

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2 hours ago, caloundracats said:

Finding that jurisdiction isn't as easy as once was as everyone seems to be cracking down on such places. Any suggestions?

There's a lot of talk about crackdown on offshore finance, but its just talk.  They cant really start telling sovereign nations how, what or who to tax.  Really they are just forcing these small nations into opening up information sharing, no more hiding funds offshore, it is to be traceable and transparent.  If you setup accounts and corporations there, you may be able to take advantage of tax efficiencies. 

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Well Kinesis is not exactly offshore as every company outside the UK is offshore, it happens to be registered in the IoM which does not tax profits generated outside the island. The sum effect will be the company will have a strong balance sheet and grow faster. Good for those who share in the income generation of the currency b/c the company behind it is a stronger entity.

How investors in the tokens (which should be seen as shares) deal with the monthly income stream is their own business. If you hold it as your legal entity in the UK then the pirates will demand you pay them. There is no argument about this. i have been battling with the pirates for years.

However if the tokens were held say by a Panamanian corporation then the income stream will be dealt with as income made outside Panama and so is tax free. Nothing to do with the EU, HMRC or anyone but the Panamanian government who are happy with the situation and it is a criminal offence to disclose confidential information (which is just about anything to do with corporations). The tokens are in the NAME of the corporation. If nominee directors, bearer shares and the corporation were inside a Panamanian Foundation, 'no-one' would know Jack Sh1t.

The issue is getting the money out but this is not a tax advice thread and i am not giving tax advice.

As Martlet says there is a lot of talk about clamp downs but it is just talk. It is to make ordinary people think it is too hard or too expensive or just too something else.

Edited by sixgun

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

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I just like to add, HMRC can now use RIPA this covers all taxable assets you may hold not just Blockchain and IOM etc.  Worse anyone who has children and gets top-up working tax credits can get investigated from both HMRC the benefits office. Both can use RIPA.

At the same time if you have mined bit coin they are not worth anything until you convert them into fiat and you  may buy works of art or gold on holiday with your bitcoin.

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To keep all the interviews together this is an audio interview i previously posted.

http://radio.goldseek.com/nuggets/coughlin.01.23.2018.mp3

And another interview

http://radio.goldseek.com/nuggets/kinesis.02.28.18.mp3

 

 

 

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

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The U.S. is harder on its citizens regarding "offshoring".  I've always hated that word because it assumes a lot - it assumes a purpose, even a perspective, when in reality it's just a human being and their money who just happen to exist in physical places and get rewarded or penalized by the governments who presume to control those places.

The U.S. has been setting up what is essentially an overseas compliance system to insure that its own citizens are penalized more harshly than any people on the earth for having "unreported" money and transactions overseas.

People in Europe are fortunate to have a history of doing business overseas and having loads of ex-pats out in the world doing business daily, your own people who live "overseas" would raise such a ruckus that your governments couldn't stop your own citizens from engaging in foreign trade, nor would they want to.

The U.S. is very different in this regard - it seems to see its own citizens efforts to build business overseas as "offshoring of jobs" only, without any regard for expanding U.S. power around the world through business, and regards most of its citizens efforts to establish bank accounts, transact business, etc, only as a way of avoiding their domestic tax responsibilities.

The U.S. would be doing much better if it stopped being such isolationists and started encouraging its own citizens, its own business people to build businesses "overseas".

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4 hours ago, Lowlow said:

The U.S. is harder on its citizens regarding "offshoring".  I've always hated that word because it assumes a lot - it assumes a purpose, even a perspective, when in reality it's just a human being and their money who just happen to exist in physical places and get rewarded or penalized by the governments who presume to control those places.

The U.S. has been setting up what is essentially an overseas compliance system to insure that its own citizens are penalized more harshly than any people on the earth for having "unreported" money and transactions overseas.

People in Europe are fortunate to have a history of doing business overseas and having loads of ex-pats out in the world doing business daily, your own people who live "overseas" would raise such a ruckus that your governments couldn't stop your own citizens from engaging in foreign trade, nor would they want to.

The U.S. is very different in this regard - it seems to see its own citizens efforts to build business overseas as "offshoring of jobs" only, without any regard for expanding U.S. power around the world through business, and regards most of its citizens efforts to establish bank accounts, transact business, etc, only as a way of avoiding their domestic tax responsibilities.

The U.S. would be doing much better if it stopped being such isolationists and started encouraging its own citizens, its own business people to build businesses "overseas".

Yes Ive heard about this and listened to Max Keiser talk about it a few times. I find it really strange that Americans of all people tolerate this.

“Nowadays people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.” Oscillate Wildly

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18 minutes ago, Stu said:

Yes Ive heard about this and listened to Max Keiser talk about it a few times. I find it really strange that Americans of all people tolerate this.

Most of it is our internal politics.  Rising stars in our leftist politics are Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, and both of them, along with the Progressives that they represent, and the last President Obama, they all see any foreign financial activity as dodging responsibilities, trying to get away with something, etc, and not legitimate efforts to expand business.  By their way of thinking any attempts to hire foreign people to do work is "offshoring jobs", etc.  It's really frustrating.  I don't even know how we got here, but there is basically ZERO conversation in the United States about growing business overseas, about how that can be good for the country, etc.  I even know conservatives who believe the exact same thing, that people who do business overseas are doing it simply to try to get away with something.

Edit, it was eye opening to me to talk to French expats living outside of France about how they were viewed, I was envious.  Their countrymen basically see them as entrepreneurs, bold people going out into the world to establish business for the benefit of France and French people everywhere.  To them it is like expanding French power overseas, building business, bringing French culture to the world, gathering resources to expand France's economy, etc.  That is 180 degrees opposite of how people in the U.S. see things.

Edited by Lowlow
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15 hours ago, Lowlow said:

The U.S. is harder on its citizens regarding "offshoring".  I've always hated that word because it assumes a lot - it assumes a purpose, even a perspective, when in reality it's just a human being and their money who just happen to exist in physical places and get rewarded or penalized by the governments who presume to control those places.

The U.S. has been setting up what is essentially an overseas compliance system to insure that its own citizens are penalized more harshly than any people on the earth for having "unreported" money and transactions overseas.

People in Europe are fortunate to have a history of doing business overseas and having loads of ex-pats out in the world doing business daily, your own people who live "overseas" would raise such a ruckus that your governments couldn't stop your own citizens from engaging in foreign trade, nor would they want to.

The U.S. is very different in this regard - it seems to see its own citizens efforts to build business overseas as "offshoring of jobs" only, without any regard for expanding U.S. power around the world through business, and regards most of its citizens efforts to establish bank accounts, transact business, etc, only as a way of avoiding their domestic tax responsibilities.

The U.S. would be doing much better if it stopped being such isolationists and started encouraging its own citizens, its own business people to build businesses "overseas".

That's what happens when government agencies get infiltrated with Commie scum and get elected....

.... they begin wiping their arse with the Constitution.

There was a time when chaps like Washington would have marched said scum to the nearest tree.

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Some perspectives:

1. This venture is attempting to create an entirely new currency to compete with existing ones. This is so ambitious that governments and central banks are likely to try to put a stop to it. The corporation may be based in friendly jurisdictions, but if major governments outlaw its use, or even just regulate it so heavily that it becomes too irksome to use, customers in most countries will not use it. Financial regulators are already gearing up to regulate cryptos. The cryptocurrency space will not remain a wild west indefinitely. The case for banning cryptos will be the same as that for banning cash: it is used by criminals, drug dealers, money launderers, terrorists, etc. Not a good argument, of course, but it carries weight with the ignorant.

2. At a minimum, regulations will require proof of identification, proof of source of funds, anti-money laundering provisions, and FATCA style disclosure requirements. Switzerland, Singapore and Lichtenstein may be sovereign states but they are coming under huge pressure to comply with regulations like these. Some financial institutions have avoided trading in cryptos precisely because they couldn't prove source of funds.

3. Price volatility may become an issue, as it has for other cryptos. Speculators in gold and silver have simpler ways to expose themselves, including leveraged vehicles. Users who just want to transact worldwide at low cost can use Litecoin or the Bitcoin lightning network. Yes, they're not backed by anything but confidence, but most users are unlikely to care: they'll go where the fees are lowest.

4. Cryptos generally are not ready for mass adoption because they are too awkward to use for the non-tech-savvy. You have to install wallet software on your computer and smartphone and learn how to make safe copies of your keys to cold storage. You also have to worry a lot more about security. One piece of malware and all your crypto has gone and is never coming back. Smartphones are completely and utterly insecure. They are designed to share information and that is what they do. You should never put any data on a smartphone that you would not wish the whole world to know. John McAfee has been working on the design of a secure smartphone, but it is likely to retail at $1000 or more. Most people do not know how to secure their computers adequately. This might be less of a problem for Kinesis, if it is centrally managed, but there still remains the issue of user authentication. With my bank, I need my card and PIN to log in to online services, and I have several other channels for authenticating myself if I need to. Without two factor authentication with physical tokens I would be reluctant to trust a transactional money system.

5. Gold backing is nice, but if there is a systemic financial collapse, governments might decide to ban all private ownership of gold. Even if the gold is safely stored in Switzerland or Singapore, it doesn't help me if I can't get it, and I am forced to sell it to the central bank at some nominal price.

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Good points Bumble

1. Agree 100%. Even if some govs/CBs are open to cryptos, possibly even as a "diversifying" reserve currency (s. the Singapore CB director last week), even if Kinesis technically is not considered as a crypto but as a gold/silver certificate, "they" don't like it. In financial matters, the last word isn't from the govs but from the BIS and its local branches

2. Kinesis's mgm states that they are carefully complying with all legislations. The point of using Kinesis - so as I understand it - is not its privacy

3. a) No. Compared to the other cryptos, Kcoins' price is tied to the underlying PM's price. The advantage of Kinesis compared to cryptos will be indeed its price stability.

b ) No. Kinesis is not a way to speculate in PMs.

c) I don't know. Kinesis transaction fees are 0,45%. How high are Litecoin/Bitcoin transaction fees?

4. 100 % agree

 

Can I mArry your brain too? 

:D

Edited by Mildred
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I must add that in my opinion Kinesis should have started little, as one of the several gold backed cryptos, and then add up features, step by step.

1st october they will start a new world monetary system. Can you imagine the amount of issues? The volume issue. Millions of users, distributed in several countries, different legislations, different fiat currencies, blockchain, servers, minters, holders, depositors, credit cards etc. etc... what kind of supercomputer and how many tons aspirin do you need to overview and keep running a world monetary system?

 

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Price volatility will remain, simply because gold itself is volatile in price. Or if you prefer to think of it the other way round, fiat currencies are volatile against gold. Either way, if you are a merchant and want to accept K-coins as payment, you may have to buy some currency hedging to protect your revenue. Current Litecoin transaction fees average 14 cents USD per transaction, and do not scale up with the amount transacted, so they are pretty cheap. If Kinesis offers yield to its stockholders, minters and depositors based on transaction charges, I don't see how they will be able to keep the fees that cheap.

The other interesting facet of a new currency is that the Russians and Chinese might use it, either overtly or covertly. After the Russian 'invasion' of Ukraine, the USA imposed sanctions on Russia in the form of denying them access to the SWIFT system of international payments. An international crypto currency fully backed by gold might be just the thing that wealthy Russians and Chinese choose to use instead.

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7 hours ago, Bumble said:

Some perspectives:

1. This venture is attempting to create an entirely new currency to compete with existing ones. This is so ambitious that governments and central banks are likely to try to put a stop to it. The corporation may be based in friendly jurisdictions, but if major governments outlaw its use, or even just regulate it so heavily that it becomes too irksome to use, customers in most countries will not use it. Financial regulators are already gearing up to regulate cryptos. The cryptocurrency space will not remain a wild west indefinitely. The case for banning cryptos will be the same as that for banning cash: it is used by criminals, drug dealers, money launderers, terrorists, etc. Not a good argument, of course, but it carries weight with the ignorant.

2. At a minimum, regulations will require proof of identification, proof of source of funds, anti-money laundering provisions, and FATCA style disclosure requirements. Switzerland, Singapore and Lichtenstein may be sovereign states but they are coming under huge pressure to comply with regulations like these. Some financial institutions have avoided trading in cryptos precisely because they couldn't prove source of funds.

3. Price volatility may become an issue, as it has for other cryptos. Speculators in gold and silver have simpler ways to expose themselves, including leveraged vehicles. Users who just want to transact worldwide at low cost can use Litecoin or the Bitcoin lightning network. Yes, they're not backed by anything but confidence, but most users are unlikely to care: they'll go where the fees are lowest.

4. Cryptos generally are not ready for mass adoption because they are too awkward to use for the non-tech-savvy. You have to install wallet software on your computer and smartphone and learn how to make safe copies of your keys to cold storage. You also have to worry a lot more about security. One piece of malware and all your crypto has gone and is never coming back. Smartphones are completely and utterly insecure. They are designed to share information and that is what they do. You should never put any data on a smartphone that you would not wish the whole world to know. John McAfee has been working on the design of a secure smartphone, but it is likely to retail at $1000 or more. Most people do not know how to secure their computers adequately. This might be less of a problem for Kinesis, if it is centrally managed, but there still remains the issue of user authentication. With my bank, I need my card and PIN to log in to online services, and I have several other channels for authenticating myself if I need to. Without two factor authentication with physical tokens I would be reluctant to trust a transactional money system.

5. Gold backing is nice, but if there is a systemic financial collapse, governments might decide to ban all private ownership of gold. Even if the gold is safely stored in Switzerland or Singapore, it doesn't help me if I can't get it, and I am forced to sell it to the central bank at some nominal price.

Kinesis is not actually a cryptocurrency. Yes both the KVT (Kinesis Velocity Token) - the 'shares' in Kinesis and the KC (Kinesis Currency) are on the blockchain, but the currency is not a cryptocurrency. The KC is a digital currency. A cryptocurrency has a limited issue. KC is only limited by the amount of gold and silver deposited in the ABX vaulting system.

Agreed Kinesis is not USD, ie bankster friendly. Those behind it are intent on breaking the paper precious metal market. Even without Kinesis this is going to happen. i have mentioned this several times elsewhere, the flow of EFP's (Exchange for Physical contracts) to London is off the scale now. This is unsettled COMEX contracts which are getting booted over into the invisible OTC (over the counter spot market). What they are being settled for is not known. That is between the parties. i saw a video today on Greg Hunter's YT channel where Bill Holter was saying the volume of EFP's this year so far already amounted to a year's silver mining production. This cannot have been settled b/c all that silver does not exist to settle the contracts. There will be a default.

So you can ban cryptocurrencies but KC is not a cryptocurrency. It is an asset backed digital currency. We are dealing in digital currencies everyday of the week expect these have Jack Sh1t behind them. This is not unbacked cryptocurrency. Forget BTC, LTC et al - the only similarly is it is blockchain. This is a digital asset backed currency. It is title of ownership over gold and silver. Price volatility will be the price volatility of the metals.

You must have all the cash to buy. This will a cash market. When leverage and margin comes in, this is when you get volatility. If you want to buy KC you have to have all the cash. If you want to mint KC you must have all the metal in the ABX system.

Users can just use BTC or LTC. Yes but they aren't. The reason it is not being used is they are not viable currencies b/c they are too volatile. i cannot sell in BTC when next week what i have is worth 30% less. This could bankrupt my business in large deals. If i sell for KC's i have gold. Whatever i have gold. This is so appealing to the mindset of large portions of the world.

i have traded every form of gold and silver. This will be no harder. It is simpler than some trades, thinking about it, it will be simpler than most. It is a way to buy and sell metal. There will be a wholesale and retail type of currency. i expect most of the volume to begin with to be on the wholesale trading side. Everything is digital anyway. You will have a trading wallet like you have a digital USD account.

The thing is this is 100% Sharia compliant and it is 100% backed. When you buy KC's you buy metal, not a promise of metal - you buy 1kg of gold in KC's you get a numbered bar.

Ban all ownership of gold? OK who on the silver forum is going to join the queue to hand their gold in? i don't expect to see any of you there. Why would someone be forced to sell to the central bank? You will sell the KC's - gold and silver sold, USD in your account. Done.

 

Edited by sixgun

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

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