Kinesis Gold and Silver currency

[Mildred]

Wonderful comparison between Sprott ETF and ABX/Kinesis by a Kinesis director

"Please note that Sprott Gold ETF has a 0.35% annual management fee (every year 0.35% of your total invest for storage, insurance and Sprott profit margin) plus any entry/exit brokerage fees. Allocated, yes. Allocated to you, no. Allocated to the Trust. You do not have title to the bullion, Sprott Trust has allocated title to the bullion. You have shares in the Trust. Apples to Apples, I would say Kinesis is cheaper, less risky (you have direct allocated title to the bullion with Kinesis) AND a yield."

Edited July 3, 2018 by Mildred

[sixgun]

i have been very busy elsewhere but here is posted the new timeline for Kinesis from the blueprint.

Tom has spoken to the Ambassadors.

The money for Kinesis is sufficient - more than.

The establishment of Kinesis in the Cayman Islands does not have the obstacles which were present in the Isle of Man - we can speculate as to whether the registration problems by the authorities were a tightening up on cryptocurrency regulation over recent months or we could speculate as to whether this was an attempt to stall Kinesis from launching. Cayman Islands Kinesis is more straight forward and Tom has told us so.

It is not a issue of IF Kinesis blasts off to help create the new paradigm, it is WHEN - and here is the new timeline.

 

[sovereignsteve]

37 minutes ago, sixgun said:

or we could speculate as to whether this was an attempt to stall Kinesis from launching

if kinesis really will cause a major earthquake and a re-set of pm prices, do you really think it will be allowed to happen?

[sixgun]

17 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

if kinesis really will cause a major earthquake and a re-set of pm prices, do you really think it will be allowed to happen?

How would it be stopped? i think the Isle of Man registration was a way to stall Kinesis. Now they are in the Cayman Islands. The usual suspects have legal frameworks whereby they can control, steal and tax (aka stealing). They operate by those rules. Kinesis currency is simply a digital title of ownership recorded on the Stellar blockchain. It can be used as a means of exchange and there is a small fee involved in the transaction which rewards those who stumped up the cash and metal to power the system. It is a commodity system with transferable title of ownership. The usual suspects push internationalism - well Kinesis flew to another place with other rules. They cannot reasonably stop Kinesis. The threat Kinesis offers is it is 100% backed with precious metal - no hypothecated to infinity gold. You own the gold and no other has a claim. They can try to stop gold purchases into the vaults - they did that already in the run up to BullionCoin but when they are potentially 1000's of conduits, what are they going to do? close the gold markets?

There will be a reset. A repricing of gold has the potential to sorting out balance sheets - an asset at $1250/oz becomes $12 500/oz. The end of the present system is inevitable and you will know about after it has happened. Steve you have gold in hand. You are your own central bank - you are sovereign.

Edited July 3, 2018 by sixgun

[sovereignsteve]

2 minutes ago, sixgun said:

Steve you have gold in hand. You are your own central bank - you are sovereign.

I never thought of it like that. Just wish I had as much as  mrdead

[Martlet]

Kinesis could launch without the need for this pre-pre-ICO funding round.  The KVT is not, or should not, be a dependency to create the systems for minting, deposits, buying, selling of gold back tokens.  The $300m is unnecessary, other than to run a large market making operation to support trading at the start.  And lack of transparency around the reasons for delay should receive far more scrutiny than it is.

 

[sixgun]

3 minutes ago, Martlet said:

Kinesis could launch without the need for this pre-pre-ICO funding round.  The KVT is not, or should not, be a dependency to create the systems for minting, deposits, buying, selling of gold back tokens.  The $300m is unnecessary, other than to run a large market making operation to support trading at the start.  And lack of transparency around the reasons for delay should receive far more scrutiny than it is.

And how do you finance the concern? The KVT guarantees the capital to do everything to make it work. The staff, the negotiations, the wallet design, integration into the blockchain, the martketing, development of the platforms, fees, development of the Kinesis bank, the Kinesis commercial centre for online merchants selling through the Kinesis payment system, there are fiat and crypto reserves also involved. When Kinesis currency begins to be issued the gold and silver must be in the ABX vaults. Kinesis must have already sourced this, paid for it, moved it into the vaults. Only then will the Kinesis currency be created as the minter buys the metal.

This and no doubt more cannot be done without significant amounts of capital. Right we are going to launch the currency - say we need to have 50 tonnes of gold in the vaults to start. No cash = No gold = Flop. Cash is the fuel that drives business engines. You can run on credit but then you are at the mercy of the usual suspects and they would kill Kinesis.

[Martlet]

29 minutes ago, sixgun said:

And how do you finance the concern? The KVT guarantees the capital to do everything to make it work. The staff, the negotiations, the wallet design, integration into the blockchain, the martketing, development of the platforms, fees, development of the Kinesis bank, the Kinesis commercial centre for online merchants selling through the Kinesis payment system, there are fiat and crypto reserves also involved.

ICOs are launching every week raising $10-30m, only a fraction of which is for those purposes (the rest being the currency itself usually).  If Kinesis have no problem with funding, they should be able to find VC funding for startup.  You also highlight another issue, that the wallet, exchanges, blockchain integration are apparently not yet started.  So they'll have a 4 month window to do quite a lot of technical implementation, which many blockchain startups will take up to a year to deliver (or not, as so often the case). 

Quote

When Kinesis currency begins to be issued the gold and silver must be in the ABX vaults. Kinesis must have already sourced this, paid for it, moved it into the vaults. Only then will the Kinesis currency be created as the minter buys the metal.

I can see why this is necessary, thats partially what i'm refering to, the funds are to prime the market.  So they buy $200m of gold (not 50t by long way) to have on hand and funds for market making and liquidity.  The question is cant they do this with a base of $20m and grow? Or even just $2m?  Isn't the whole objective to buy new gold on ABX exchange and commit it to KAU as you go?  Instead people are paying to fill the vaults with gold which no one actually holds any title to, on the premise people will then buy it from there rather than elsewhere. 

Edited July 3, 2018 by Martlet

[Mildred]

51 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

if kinesis really will cause a major earthquake and a re-set of pm prices, do you really think it will be allowed to happen?

No

I'm not optimist like six. I think, if kinesis stands alone, "they" can easily stop it. Look at the registration story. In order to stop kinesis, it was enough to get some leverage on a couple of IoM-burocrats.

I'm counting on abx/kinesis institutional partners.

We talk about "the central banks", as if they were a block, but it's not. Ok, there is the BIS, there is a group of more powerful CBs who leads, but there is also some space for autonomous decisions. Directors of some asian CBs has already expressed interest for cryptos

Institutions. There are private ones, there are public ones like Indonesia Postal Service, there are private ones with publich relevance like Deutsche Boerse etc.

Once in place, in order to block this network "they" would really have to fall back to extraordinary, VISIBLE measures, on a international level.

How would the whole kinesis institutional network react?

[sixgun]

@Martlet i realise you do not trust or believe in Kinesis and so in your reality it is dodgy. End of story.

The KVT is crowd funding. If you get a venture capitalist company involved they have a lot of say and you concentrate power with the 'beast'.  Kinesis has chosen to take the crowd funding route. What others do is not important. They are raising money - they are spreading the base, more people are getting involved.  They have sufficient to be able to do everything necessary. It is a success. The route taken is successful. Yes one could start off very tiny and grow - or not. When there is plenty of resources in a worldwide vaulting system, you can blast off hard. This is the route they have chosen to taken.

[sixgun]

8 minutes ago, Mildred said:

No

I'm not optimist like six. I think, if kinesis stands alone, "they" can easily stop it. Look at the registration story. In order to stop kinesis, it was enough to get some leverage on a couple of IoM-burocrats.

I'm counting on abx/kinesis institutional partners.

We talk about "the central banks", as if they were a block, but it's not. Ok, there is the BIS, there is a group of more powerful CBs who leads, but there is also some space for autonomous decisions. Directors of some asian CBs has already expressed interest for cryptos

Institutions. There are private ones, there are public ones like Indonesia Postal Service, there are private ones with publich relevance like Deutsche Boerse etc.

Once in place, in order to block this network "they" would really have to fall back to extraordinary, VISIBLE measures, on a international level.

How would the whole kinesis institutional network react?

i realise that Kinesis was postponed has affected your outlook. You see it as vulnerable and it will be smothered. Kinesis is not quite standing alone as you point out yourself.

[Martlet]

3 minutes ago, sixgun said:

@Martlet i realise you do not trust or believe in Kinesis and so in your reality it is dodgy. End of story.

The KVT is crowd funding. If you get a venture capitalist company involved they have a lot of say and you concentrate power with the 'beast'.  Kinesis has chosen to take the crowd funding route. What others do is not important. They are raising money - they are spreading the base, more people are getting involved.  They have sufficient to be able to do everything necessary. It is a success. The route taken is successful. Yes one could start off very tiny and grow - or not. When there is plenty of resources in a worldwide vaulting system, you can blast off hard. This is the route they have chosen to taken.

Its true I was skeptical, though have come round to the concept of the KAU itself.  I remain suspicious of the path they are taking, and there is little to gain trust when they have been less than transparent about the delay.  Bottom line is, i'd rather keep the $ in my pocket to buy actual KAU rather than fund the startup.

[sixgun]

6 minutes ago, Martlet said:

Its true I was skeptical, though have come round to the concept of the KAU itself.  I remain suspicious of the path they are taking, and there is little to gain trust when they have been less than transparent about the delay.  Bottom line is, i'd rather keep the $ in my pocket to buy actual KAU rather than fund the startup.

So not quite as dodgy as i thought you would say. The hardest step in a long journey is the first and you have taken it.

i would never dis anyone for wanting real money in hand. This is a foundation of financial security. KVT's are risk investments- not crazy risk but they are more speculative than 50 sovereigns in a bag hidden away. Perhaps when the currency starts and you can see it working you will want to get on board. This is an entirely understandable approach if you were to take it. i will be pulling KVT income out and buying physical to hold - assuming i can get everything i put in out and in physical, the investment is cost free and free money from there on in.

Edited July 3, 2018 by sixgun

[Mildred]

six, you are on fire today

you scare me

?

[Mildred]

Andrew Maguire Says Major German Bank Just Refused To Hand Over Client’s Physical Gold

Following at least 10 similar reports to us of banks refusing to deliver clients’ physical gold bars, this week a very wealthy client sought to remove 500 kilos of his physical gold from a German bank for safekeeping in a secure, independent vault. The bank refused delivery of his gold bars.

https://kingworldnews.com/major-alert-andrew-maguire-says-major-german-bank-just-refused-to-hand-over-clients-physical-gold/

 

This is no refusal to do business, this is refusal to deliver.

Are these clients going to sue? How many refusals do we need to see this news on the financial MSM? Or are they going to report on this only after the banks are declared guilty?

 

[sixgun]

Kinesis mentioned here as the cartel is put under pressure from the physical market

https://kingworldnews.com/andrew-maguire-6-7-2018/

[sixgun]

21 hours ago, Mildred said:

Andrew Maguire Says Major German Bank Just Refused To Hand Over Client’s Physical Gold

Following at least 10 similar reports to us of banks refusing to deliver clients’ physical gold bars, this week a very wealthy client sought to remove 500 kilos of his physical gold from a German bank for safekeeping in a secure, independent vault. The bank refused delivery of his gold bars.

https://kingworldnews.com/major-alert-andrew-maguire-says-major-german-bank-just-refused-to-hand-over-clients-physical-gold/

This is no refusal to do business, this is refusal to deliver.

Are these clients going to sue? How many refusals do we need to see this news on the financial MSM? Or are they going to report on this only after the banks are declared guilty?

 

Yes - this is important. The boys already know - no need for the lying controlled media to do their spinning, We know the jig up almost up in the last dance.

i have said on the forum before that:

1 The paper scheme can only work for as long as there is sufficient physical at something like the paper price.

2 The cartel can fob investors off with paper contracts and sham metal shares like SLV and GLD along with conning them into holding gold is unallocated accounts.

The gold in these accounts does not exist and at best has 100's of claims on it as it is rehypothecated to infinity and beyond.

The interview exposed the fact a gold investor demanded his gold. Gold in an unallocated account is not the investor's, it is part of the banks assets and the investor is in the queue of other creditors for that gold. Seems like someone here wised up and wanted his gold - likely to put into the ABX in preparation for the Kinesis currency. There was no gold and delivery was refused. Cash settlement is generally in the small print but it seems there are limits on the amount of cash you can pull out at anyone time. Expect many more demands for unallocated gold as this message gets round with the alternative of fully allocated yield bearing gold in Kinesis becomes ever imminent. The squeeze is on and the pips will squeak.

Expecting the reset. Also noted i have shares in the miner K92 - excellent reserves with extremely high grade ore deposits.

Edited July 7, 2018 by sixgun

[Mildred]

Maguire talks about 500 kg = 17,600 oz

1 oz = 1,250$

so, the amount involved was over US$22 M

A private or a fund?

 

[Bumble]

Andrew Maguire doesn't give any details, but reading between the lines it may be that the German customer he refers to was an owner of Xetra-Gold bonds. These bonds are similar to commodity ETFs like GLD in that they claim to be 100% backed by physical gold and they allow for delivery if a customer owns a sufficiently large holding. Xetra-Gold is issued by Deutsche Börse Commodities and Deutsche Bank is one of its partners. According to the Xetra-Gold website, customers do still have right of delivery and some make use of this facility. Usually with bonds of this kind, there are provisions in the small print that allow the fund to settle in cash if they choose, so refusing to hand over physical gold is not technically a default.

On the other hand, if the customer owned allocated bars, i.e. the gold was his own property, that would be a serious issue. A bank could only legitimately refuse to return a client's property if they suspected criminal activity or if they were under orders from a regulator, a central bank or from law enforcement authorities.

Andrew Maguire goes on to suggest that bullion banks are clamping down on withdrawals of gold in expectation of bank bail-ins. This may be true, though it is just a speculation. It does emphasise the importance of holding gold outside the banking system.

[mr-dead]

On 07/07/2018 at 21:57, Mildred said:

Maguire talks about 500 kg = 17,600 oz

1 oz = 1,250$

so, the amount involved was over US$22 M

A private or a fund?

 

That is also only 1/10 of the owners holdings.

I would have a sweat on right now if I were him!

[Martlet]

23 hours ago, Bumble said:

Andrew Maguire doesn't give any details...

Well quite, we dont know if this concerns redeemable bonds as noted, unallocated or allocated holdings, if a outright refusal or requiring some time for withdrawal.  Into this information vacuum much speculation follows.

The interesting one is that its prelude to a bank bail in.  This is disingenuous as bail-in relates to cash depositors and bond holders both being creditors of the bank, so can find their credit used to shore up the balance sheet.  Allocated gold does not belong to the bank, the owner is not a creditor.  To take this gold would be introducing confiscation.

[sixgun]

We are pleased to announce the second webinar hosted by the CEO of Kinesis, Thomas Coughlin. Tom will be providing updates on key developments and important Kinesis elements. The webinar will be held this Thursday 12th of July 13:00 GMT. Topics being covered are as follows: Kinesis timelines and update; Kinesis Cayman update; Multiple yields and how this differentiates Kinesis from other asset-backed cryptocurrencies (minter, holder and depositor yields). To secure your place, register here. This webinar will be recorded and distributed to all registrants of the webinar. Once you have registered you will receive a confirmation email and instructions on how to join the webinar.   We look forward to seeing you there.

[sixgun]

On 09/07/2018 at 13:58, Martlet said:

Well quite, we dont know if this concerns redeemable bonds as noted, unallocated or allocated holdings, if a outright refusal or requiring some time for withdrawal.  Into this information vacuum much speculation follows.

The interesting one is that its prelude to a bank bail in.  This is disingenuous as bail-in relates to cash depositors and bond holders both being creditors of the bank, so can find their credit used to shore up the balance sheet.  Allocated gold does not belong to the bank, the owner is not a creditor.  To take this gold would be introducing confiscation.

Maguire clearly states the client demanded 500kg of gold bars returned which were being held in the bank vaults. No mention of bonds. The gold holding was unallocated.

i have explained numerous times before, the banks do not have these unallocated gold bars. Legally these bars are the banks. If a bank were to hold 50 tonnes in unallocated kilo gold bars you might imagine 50 tonnes of kilo bars and the client was simply demanding 500 of them.

The problem is the banks do not have these bars and potentially never had them. The client will have originally instructed the bank to buy gold. He would have handed over the cash but instead of buying gold the bank used that cash for other purposes. They banked on no-one demanding their gold back and on permanently low gold prices. They then have $billions to play with. i am aware of cases where the bank was charging for the storage and insurance of the gold which never existed - no doubt this is endemic.

This gold is generally highly leveraged. A few bars with 100's of claims. Someone turning up demanding 500kg just cannot be dealt with. A few bars here and there but removal of 500kg, even if it were there, would ramp up the leverage, so the significantly depleted vault holdings now have many more claims per bar.

The point Maguire makes is here is one of several recent examples where the banks have been exposed as not having the gold. That more and more people are turning up demanding their gold only to find the small print of the contract means they will be cash settled and there is no gold. Likely the guy will take the cash and get Maguire to source him the gold.

The real physical market is going to get tighter and tighter. There are 1000's tonnes of gold in unallocated accounts which does not exist and probably never existed. As the reality of this fraud becomes more apparent and gold holders demand gold. potentially to deposit in the Kinesis system for a yield, we can only expect upward pressure on physical gold prices and an official price reset.

Edited July 10, 2018 by sixgun

[sixgun]

Really good webinar - really good. i will post it here when the recorded version is available.

[Mildred]

100% agree

First part about the company's strategies, second part about the yield system and the distincion between minter, depositor and holder's yield