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sixgun

Kinesis Gold and Silver currency

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Thanks six!

I was eagerly waiting for you to create a Kinesis-thread. Nobody could do it but you

It would be lovely if you could feed it from time to time. Spreading Kinesis infos all over the forum is not bad, but Kinesis deserves its own thread

Curious about Steve, Dave, Lowlow and fellow silverforumers' opinion about it

See you on telegram :)

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It was interesting to note, amongst many points made, that the silver market is very tight. That this will be the silver bullet killing the price fixing game. This comes from people who are dealing (in tonnes) on the wholesale market, not buying a handful of coins from dealers. We get no indications of this from the controlled media. If people knew they would buy silver until their hands bleed - (which is what i keep saying of course).

Telegram

https://web.telegram.org/#/im?p=s1375042597_4589372261987058517

Edited by sixgun

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I have gone through the process to create a single token as a punt, but was put off at the last by the need to agree to potential complete loss if the project fails, which is the case with most crypto ICO's as I am aware. I seem to remember that an earlier token that was shut down for one reason or another? If this is going to be as powerful as I think it is, certain groups will not take it sitting down, but then perhaps the right money is involved this time.

The upside for physical if it works is enough for me to just hold physical metal and cut out the risk (and potentially huge reward) of holding the tokens. I will come back once it has launched and reassess, perhaps then convert metal into tokens if the possibility remains. Last year I would have been all over this, but right now, I have far too many DIY projects that need to be paid for :o

At the very least we are seeing an attempt at an actual use for a monetary blockchain as opposed to ledgers of nothing being pushed via a thousand different copies. This or something like it will compete in the same space with what are effectively fiat crypto currencies and people will start to figure out what their preferred tokens have missing - the same thing the dollar and the rest of the fiat currencies have been missing since the 1970's - something of tangible value.  

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Every time I see Kinesis pitched here, I like the concept but cant get past two major issues.  Firstly the dual tokens, a token offered to raise funds separate from the actual gold back tokens.  What's backing the KVT, and why so much?   Major tech driven projects are asking for $20-30m and this project asks for 10 times that.  Secondly, the claims for yield are so high, I don't see how they'll achieve the predicted volume of $850bn in year one, with impact on projections for future years.  Then consider fees must come from the holders/ themselves, so they'll need to be trading amongst themselves.  A lot.  If it was a straight bullion for crypto offering without the yield claims, it would look a lot more sensible. 

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At the moment KVT's are being sold. These are the Kinesis Velocity Tokens. They are shares in the business. They are not the currency which comes later. The KVT's like all shares have a chance to go to zero. i think this is unlikely but there is always that chance. There is a chance any of or even all the current class of cryptocurrencies could go to zero.

If you think a share offering is in a business with good management and good prospects then if you have risk capital it may be worth a punt. The upside in this project if it does as projected is vast. The product is a system and framework to monetise gold and silver on the blockchain. National fiat currencies are all on a path to zero. The majority of crytocurrencies selling themselves as replacements are unbacked and one could argue are little better than what they vie to replace. As national currencies crumble there is a big need for honest money. As the paper gold and silver markets rock and are exposed as little more than a confidence trick there is a big need to a system of honest trading for gold and silver. Enter Kinesis. i believe the time is right.

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26 minutes ago, Martlet said:

 What's backing the KVT, and why so much?   

Major tech driven projects are asking for $20-30m and this project asks for 10 times that.  Secondly, the claims for yield are so high, I don't see how they'll achieve the predicted volume of $850bn in year one, with impact on projections for future years.  Then consider fees must come from the holders/ themselves, so they'll need to be trading amongst themselves.  A lot.  If it was a straight bullion for crypto offering without the yield claims, it would look a lot more sensible. 

The KVT's are blockchain shares in the business. What backs shares in Ebay or Visa or so many companies?

Dropbox launched recently. Four years ago it raised $350 million venture capital.

i agree the yields on KVT's are high. i have seen number crunching on the Telegram thread i put the link up for. Personally i would be happy with 1/10 of these yields.

The yields come for the currencies changing hands. There are going to be 4 metal based coins, KAU and KAG, the lower denomination retail coins and the wholesale coins KWG and KWS.  How would the currency system run if there were no fees? How would ebay work if it did not charge fees? How would any of the payment and trading systems work unless there were fees to grease the wheels? The difference is 'we' get a big bite of these fees instead of the international bankers.

Edited by sixgun

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18 minutes ago, sixgun said:

The KVT's are blockchain shares in the business. What backs shares in Ebay or Visa or so many companies?

Nothing but the prospect of their future capital gain.  This project is supposed to be about being backed by gold. 

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Just now, Martlet said:

Nothing but the prospect of their future capital gain.  This project is supposed to be about being backed by gold. 

Well these businesses would traditionally be valued on future earnings. This is basically how every business is valued. Yes there are fixed assets but cash flow, earnings, business plan and management are what matter in valuations. There will be vaulting systems 

How do you create a worldwide currency system? Where will gold and silver be safely vaulted around the world? How will you staff this? When you are running a 'central bank' i expect there will be capital reserves - they will be holding some paper currencies. They will be the market makers in this - this requires capital reserves. 'The physical precious metals are stored within fully insured, world-class vaulting facilities in Sydney, Singapore, Hong Kong, Dubai, London, Liechtenstein, Zurich and New York.' i don't supposed that comes for free. If i were presented with a business vaulting $billions of precious metal at numerous locations stating they were setting up a worldwide currency that would trade on the German stock market and they said they financing all of it with $20 - 30 million i would avoid. They would go bust before they started. i have started microscopic businesses which needed £100's of thousands and it was tight.

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6 minutes ago, matrawr said:

@sixgunis this what all the kinesis talk is about? Is it just gold? There's one called bullioncoin

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-24/cryptocurrency-backed-by-gold-being-developed-perth-mint/9352036

Last summer the Allocated Bullion Exchange and BullionCoin were going to launch a gold and silver cryptocurrency. It was to be called BullionCoin. Maguire did an interview about how the gold market was going to breakout. He did not say much more specific. There were two investors who would be buying gold in this new crypto currency. They were stumping up for 250 tonnes of gold. As i understand it Maguire attempted to buy this but the LBMA would not do the deal. As it was the ABX who was the vaulting side of the currency walked away as BullionCoin wanted to vault elsewhere but mainly b/c the gold and silver would not belong to the currency holders but would be an asset of BullionCoin. This was seen quite rightly as unacceptable.

The ABX carried on with the momentum gained and are launching Kinesis. There will be 4 metal backed coins. KAU and KWG the gold coins and KAG and KWS the silver coins.

There are a number of these. BullionCoin is one. There is Onegram and others. Several offer a yield on those who put gold and silver into the system to back the currency. The ABX is international already and with the likes of Maguire there are lots of contacts and big players come on board. The first 100 000 shares (KVT's) were sold straightaway to one Chinese hedge fund when it was launched at the St Moritz cryptocurrency conference earlier this year. They have not advertised yet. The Greg Hunter youtube video was the most mainstream the publicity has been so far. If i weren't a client of Maguire already the first i would have heard would have been this week.

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I'm seeing it's equal to grams of silver. I do of course have reservations about things like this. Aren't Governments looking to crack down on cryptos? Also what about if someone at bullioncoin were to obtain gold/silver illegally and government officials caught on?

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7 hours ago, matrawr said:

I'm seeing it's equal to grams of silver. I do of course have reservations about things like this. Aren't Governments looking to crack down on cryptos? Also what about if someone at bullioncoin were to obtain gold/silver illegally and government officials caught on?

All risks that come with investing in this unique space, the promised rewards are high on the blueprint which may or may not balance, it's personal. Personally, the risks were too high.

Yes the chance of reward for simply holding metal yourself will increase slightly with every success of this kind of project. As sixgun says if just one takes off properly it could force physical price discovery outside of paper market influence. It's not necessarily going to be this one that does it, I don't know how many others are attempting similar projects - not that it matters. It only takes one to be successful in that way for holders of physical to benefit. 

Edited by KDave
speeling

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22 hours ago, Mildred said:

Curious about Steve, Dave, Lowlow and fellow silverforumers' opinion about it

I think you pays your money and you takes your chances. :D

I think it's important to see that a lot of things are going on here including but not limited to, (1) a block-chain currency, (2) certificates of deposit for a commodity (i.e. representative money for gold and silver deposits at what amounts to a bullion bank and the inherent counter-party risk associated with that), (3) social media promotion of a private businesses services, (4) speculation as an investor in financing a private businesses project and the associated risk/reward, (5) the realistic potential for a collapse of established systems (i.e. the dollar, U.S. debt, gold and silver commodity markets, etc), (6) the potential end of the petro-dollar (i.e. competition with the petro-yuan, for example) and efforts to decouple world markets from the risks associated with U.S. deficits and debt, (7) our position in the business cycle, the frequency and potential for a bear in various markets, and the potential for near term deflation, (8) bubbles and the madness of crowds, youth's attraction to shiny new things, the advantages of being "first" vs being well positioned, etc, and (?????, various other x factors that cannot yet be perceived) ...

Edited by Lowlow

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I like Greg Hunter, he does good interviews for the most part.  But I watched this hoping for some explanation of how Kinesis works and why it will be any different than promises to be "backed by gold", but it seemed more like a PR/sales pitch to me.  Getting people to accept a digital form of gold, especially those who understand how rigged the Comex system is, will require a lot of explaining and Trust.  I think whistleblower Andrew McGuire is there really to instill Trust.  I'm just not buying it yet, but maybe I'm still in the mindset "if you don't hold it you don't own it".  Will be interesting to see how things shake out anyway.

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11 hours ago, matrawr said:

Is this likely to affect the PM's I currently own? I see the price on bullioncoin is about $42 but the silver price is less than half that why is that? Silvers silver right?

Even if this is a modest success it will pull more physical out of the supply chain and bring forward the date when there are significant failures of delivery and a forced reset in price.
i don't know what BullionCoin is up to these days. i just looked at the website and the latest news is from last September.

 

11 hours ago, matrawr said:

I'm seeing it's equal to grams of silver. I do of course have reservations about things like this. Aren't Governments looking to crack down on cryptos? Also what about if someone at bullioncoin were to obtain gold/silver illegally and government officials caught on?

Aren't governments looking to crack down on cryptos? We see stuff about this. Then we see governments green lighting cryptos. The banks do not want it b/c it takes away their monopoly on creating currency and people will generally opt for a currency with intrinsic value over unbacked.

What is obtaining gold/silver illegally? To me this is handling stolen goods. i think the gold governments handle is generally stolen. It will be bought in the physical markets. This is what these people like Maguire do day in day out with or without Kinesis. In addition miners will be feeding their output into this which will seriously disrupt the supply side and be a massive boon to miners.

1 hour ago, tbone said:

I like Greg Hunter, he does good interviews for the most part.  But I watched this hoping for some explanation of how Kinesis works and why it will be any different than promises to be "backed by gold", but it seemed more like a PR/sales pitch to me.  Getting people to accept a digital form of gold, especially those who understand how rigged the Comex system is, will require a lot of explaining and Trust.  I think whistleblower Andrew McGuire is there really to instill Trust.  I'm just not buying it yet, but maybe I'm still in the mindset "if you don't hold it you don't own it".  Will be interesting to see how things shake out anyway.

i kept hearing Greg say keep it short and to the point, so i don't think he wanted too deep a conversation on this.

Kinesis works were you buy metal on the Allocated Bullion Exchange. You push a button on the ABX MetalDesk trading platform and create a blockchain title of ownership - these are the Kinesis coins - there were be gold and silver ones. There 1x KAG = 10g silver, 1x KWS = 1000 oz silver, 1x KAU= 1g gold and 1x KWG= 1kg gold. The W denotes wholesale coins. You can hold these coins on the Stellar blockchain network, (KVT's are held on the Etherium blockchain and the currency will be Stellar) you can just hold them, you can spend them, you can send them to someone else, or you can trade them through the German stock exchange. There will be a Kinesis bank - a mobile bank is linking in (don't know the name yet) and you will be able to spend them on Visa. Even if the retailer does not take Kinesis that will still be possible as the bank will convert the Kinesis to fiat. Transactions incur a charge and those who originally created the coins (Minters) will get a share (royalty) each time they change hands for as long as their coins exist. Coins cease to exist when whoever has the coins exchanges them for the underlying physical.

1 hour ago, Lowlow said:

I think you pays your money and you takes your chances. :D

The KVT's are shares and as such are pure risk. The coins are title of ownership over metal so by buying a coin you are doing is buying metal with a blockchain title. The risk is you do not hold the metal. We have heard of many outfits that never had the metal. There is SLV and GLD which likely do not have all the metal. For me there are two risks.

That the gold/silver will be stolen by the authorities. This of course could happen with any vaulting system but Kinesis is attacking the banking cartel. The other risk is you mint coins after buying gold or silver on the ABX and they don't sell. That the idea does not catch on. No-one want to use them.

Edited by sixgun

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1 hour ago, sixgun said:

There 1x KAG = 10g silver, 1x KWS = 1000 oz silver, 1x KAU= 1g gold and 1x KWG= 1kg gold. The W denotes wholesale coins. You can hold these coins on the Stellar blockchain network, (KVT's are held on the Etherium blockchain and the currency will be Stellar) you can just hold them, you can spend them, you can send them to someone else, or you can trade them through the German stock exchange

Thanks for the explanation sixgun.  Can someone who holds a digital coin convert that into a physical coin in any way? 

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1 minute ago, tbone said:

Thanks for the explanation sixgun.  Can someone who holds a digital coin convert that into a physical coin in any way? 

The currency is blockchain title of ownership of gold or silver. So if you have 1 x KWG you have title of ownership on a specific 1kg gold bar. You can redeem the KWG for the bar. There are lower limits on redemption. i don't remember the lower limits but they aren't something huge. When the coins are 'cashed in' for the metal those currency coins are extinguished.

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2 minutes ago, sixgun said:

There are lower limits on redemption. i don't remember the lower limits but they aren't something huge

Very interesting, thanks sixgun.  I'll try to find out what the minimum redemptions are (or if you find out let us know).  Reasonable physical redemption is the only way to truly keep things honest imo.

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23 minutes ago, tbone said:

Very interesting, thanks sixgun.  I'll try to find out what the minimum redemptions are (or if you find out let us know).  Reasonable physical redemption is the only way to truly keep things honest imo.

This is on page 25 of the blueprint https://kinesis.money/documents/kinesis-blueprint.pdf

There are abbreviations i am not fully familiar with at the moment, the minimum amounts depend on the system the metal is in. It says

Min. Physical Withdrawal Quantity [GOLD] - 1,000 KAU (1,000 fine grams) - 100 KAU (100 fine grams)

Minimum Withdrawal Quantity [SILVER] - 10,000 KAG (10,000 gram)  - 5,000 KAG (5,000 grams)

So we are looking at a 100g gold bar and 5 x 1kg of silver.

8 minutes ago, KDave said:

I think it was 800 USD can't quite remember. Too much for me to punt at the moment. I'll probably regret not pulling the trigger. 

The tokens  (KVT's) are $850 at the moment. The full price is $1000, they are on a time dependent discount.

14 hours ago, Martlet said:

What's backing the KVT, and why so much?   Major tech driven projects are asking for $20-30m and this project asks for 10 times that. 

There is a more detailed spend laid out on page 41 of the current blueprint. https://kinesis.money/documents/kinesis-blueprint.pdf

Edited by sixgun

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https://www.goldcorp.com/English/investors/news-releases/news-release-details/2018/Goldcorp-Deposits-the-First-Gold-on-Tradewind-Blockchain/default.aspx

Not Kinesis but here we have a miner Goldcorp kicking off a gold cryptocurrency. Gold is deposited and cryptocurrency coins are minted.

i note at the end of the piece we see

Quote

Mr. Garofalo [ President and CEO at Goldcorp ] added, "We believe Tradewind has the potential to change the gold investment industry like the introduction of ETFs did over 10 years ago."

What does David Garofalo mean by 'change' the gold investment industry? ETF's like SLV and GLD have damaged the gold and silver markets, taking people away from owning actual gold and silver. Hopefully the title of ownership cryptocurrencies outside the cartel will bring them back.

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On ‎28‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 12:16, Mildred said:

Curious about Steve, Dave, Lowlow and fellow silverforumers' opinion about it

well if you mean me.....

It's not something I've looked at closely. I hope it works.

It smacks too much like alternative investment schemes for me, I'm too old for gambling on such things; been stung and done very well out of schemes in the past but no more.

I didn't gamble on cryptos and probably missed out on large profits with bitcoin but I don't mind.

I'm not bothered about the alleged convenience of a gold-backed currency but I'm happy to ride it's success if it works and forces a re-set in PM prices, which will suit me quite nicely as I have lots:)

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